Bang!

[dazza1981]

Hi mate i did not know that, i do have my approved sparkies card but only recently got it.
Saying that i did a full apprenticeship and did the whole college route whilst on the tools but i was working on my own majority of the time as its the only way to gain confidence and experience and learn IMO. ( providing a supervisor has checked your work is ok )

 

[guest119]

So what you're saying Boydy is that all experienced sparks wouldn't have made the same mistake? I doubt that 100%. Who are you to say his level of competence is not up to this job. Some Electrical Trainee have qualifications that would make your eyes water. Most of them in my city tend to be ex.navy and dealt with far more technical problems than this. Cut the guy some slack...he did what many would have done.

And the legal implications are.....?

Boydy

 

[southsea1201]

Clearly if his works doesn't meet the requirements of BS7671 and there's a mishap then the sh&t hits the fan....the same would apply to the most experienced man.

...and I'd also be confident that the OP has resolved the issues on this site

 

[dazza1981]

For roughly 3 years i have been working unsupervised being just a mere jib gold card installation spark up until i got approved status couple of months back.Please dont ring the police on me lol.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Sorry Delboy, I feel bad about saying this and I never thought I'd speak out against Electrical Trainee (seeing as though I am one), but we are simply not allowed to work outside of the domestic arena. We are 'domestic' installers and should not be undertaking electrical work within a shop.

 

[guest119]

Clearly if his works doesn't meet the requirements of BS7671 and there's a mishap then the sh&t hits the fan....the same would apply to the most experienced man.

...and I'd also be confident that the OP has resolved the issues on this site

Its not about bs7671 for goodness sake man!
Its about being qualified to do the task, experience, risk assess, methodoligy, supervising young persons etc etc.
Yes we all make mistakes but you need to be qualified and suitably experienced to do the task.
Are you familiar with common law? Thou shalt not hurt, endanger, kill another by your actions or inactions/omittions.

Boydy

 

[southsea1201]

Fair play with your comments Boydy, but in this instance I think the OP approached the job professionally and was a victim of something unforeseen that would have caught many out. He was probably aware that each of the properties had its own cutout. He had made an assumption that many of us would...ie that with the main switch of the board in the off position (and tested to boot) that he was ok to IR test.
I don't think it is helpful to attack his ability and competence when he has been the victim of a situation that even the most experienced man could easily fall into. His post is exactly what you want on this forum, it helps the knowledge pool and makes all of us think twice about taking anything for granted.

 

[m top]

Sorry Delboy, I feel bad about saying this and I never thought I'd speak out against Electrical Trainee (seeing as though I am one), but we are simply not allowed to work outside of the domestic arena. We are 'domestic' installers and should not be undertaking electrical work within a shop.

If it's single phase what's the difference as long you understand the cuircuit design why not core principle no different?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Totally agree with the comments that the OP was pretty much blameless on this one. 100% certain it would have caught me out as well.

 

[ifindoubtdont]

I've been at it for 35yrs and can honestly say "You learn something new every day." That's how you gain experience and you very often say "Oh bugger, I won't do that again."

 

[southsea1201]

I've been at it for 35yrs and can honestly say "You learn something new every day." That's how you gain experience and you very often say "Oh bugger, I won't do that again."

Exactly, by sharing experiences we all learn more each day. I can see the impatience on this forum of the senior posters when others ask what they perceive as daft questions, and perhaps they have forgotten they were once the errand boy or teamaker. Now they have vast accumulated knowledge and at times can be a little condescending on more inexperienced people. Clearly they have forgotten their humble beginnings.
Knowledge takes time, and giving your knowledge is the biggest gift of all. We all love to read the occasional threads which show the fountains of knowledge some guys have...but it also seems they just can't resist giving someone a short kick in the nuts!!!!

 

[scammell man]

I think there's an aspect here that is overlooked. The tests are designed to be carried out in order to safely find faults. They are really designed for new build, ie everything starts dead. The tests don't work so well for fault finding and periodic testing, which is why 2395 is one of the highest qualifications. I am on record elsewhere on this forum for stating if you are Part P only you are not qualified for periodics or for offering a fault finding service.

in my view, the OP has made an early assumption which was wrong, and nearly killed himself. Also his powering down of the CU was at fault.

assumption: rcd faulty and was not. This was replaced and not tested. A functional test of the new one to prove the assumption would have shown the assumption wrong and further investigation was required. However he assumed fault fixed and ploughed into a full test of a system which wasn't dead. Golden rule: change one thing at time to prove cause and effect.

powering down CU. OP States no data. It would be better to identify what was powered down by each MCB as it was switched off. Ie identify the circuit. The false feed would be identified as Unknown which should equal warning. With an apprentice to run round the cafe and see what's happening this form of investigation is easy.
golden rule. Take your time.

If you think this is easy to say sitting on the computer, I had exactly this last week. Unlabelled CU with additional circuits added in. I spent 2 hours finding out what was on each MCB and where other supplies in the installation interacted before even thinking if putting my fingers on the copper.

 

[telectrix]

not a good ideas to put your fingers on a copper. you'd be up before the beak on an assault charge before you could say"only joking, occifer".

 

[m top]

I think there's an aspect here that is overlooked. The tests are designed to be carried out in order to safely find faults. They are really designed for new build, ie everything starts dead. The tests don't work so well for fault finding and periodic testing, which is why 2395 is one of the highest qualifications. I am on record elsewhere on this forum for stating if you are Part P only you are not qualified for periodics or for offering a fault finding service.

in my view, the OP has made an early assumption which was wrong, and nearly killed himself. Also his powering down of the CU was at fault.

assumption: rcd faulty and was not. This was replaced and not tested. A functional test of the new one to prove the assumption would have shown the assumption wrong and further investigation was required. However he assumed fault fixed and ploughed into a full test of a system which wasn't dead. Golden rule: change one thing at time to prove cause and effect.

powering down CU. OP States no data. It would be better to identify what was powered down by each MCB as it was switched off. Ie identify the circuit. The false feed would be identified as Unknown which should equal warning. With an apprentice to run round the cafe and see what's happening this form of investigation is easy.
golden rule. Take your time.

If you think this is easy to say sitting on the computer, I had exactly this last week. Unlabelled CU with additional circuits added in. I spent 2 hours finding out what was on each MCB and where other supplies in the installation interacted before even thinking if putting my fingers on the copper.

The guy made a mistake I don't understand your comment regarding the test don't work so well in fault finding why is that you can not find a fault with the dead test continuity insulation resistance ? Please explain you wouldn't look for a fault on a periodic live would you

 

[scammell man]

M top , I don't understand your question.
try this
what is the first test you do
was this done in this case

then try
how do you do an IR test on an unknown circuit. Have you removed all those nice expensive bits that don't like 500v up 'em?

has the OP killed himself, do you think HSE would say 'oh we'll be was faced with a difficult situation which he could not have foreseen and therefore there was nothing he could do' ? That's like saying your dead As soon as you accept the job and that is not so!

 

[m top]

Ok maybe I misunderstood your explanation what test do you do first on a periodic ,prove there's an earth ze identify cuircuits safe isolation dead tests to find any faults, I was not referring to this case in general just didn't understand what you were saying about the dead tests don't work so well for fault finding.

 

[telectrix]

why else would we spend all that money on vde 100v tested tools? it's not because we work live, is it? LOL.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

If it's single phase what's the difference as long you understand the cuircuit design why not core principle no different?

What you're saying is right in theory Mtop, but thats a bit like saying a competent nurse who has watched the doctor do thousands of operations could do it themselves. They might be competent to do it, but that doesn't make it right. I think its a bit of a slippery slope if we say.."well he's not qualified on paper, but he knows what he's doing". I think we need to work within both the 'legal boundaries' AND within our own competency levels.

That all sounds a bit boring but with 60 odd million people in the country there needs to be certain boundaries otherwise ther'd be chaos!! :dizzy2:

 

[scammell man]

An example: full test IR Line neutral
periodic or fault finding this is normally skipped because you don't know what's out there or you can't be bothered to remove several scores of bulbs.

 

[m top]

What you're saying is right in theory Mtop, but thats a bit like saying a competent nurse who has watched the doctor do thousands of operations could do it themselves. They might be competent to do it, but that doesn't make it right. I think its a bit of a slippery slope if we say.."well he's not qualified on paper, but he knows what he's doing". I think we need to work within both the 'legal boundaries' AND within our own competency levels.

That all sounds a bit boring but with 60 odd million people in the country there needs to be certain boundaries otherwise ther'd be chaos!! :dizzy2:

So your saying you would turn a job in a shop down because it isn't right ? Please don't think I am havin a dig but if you are competent you are competent this was a single phase supply so what's the difference,if it was 3 phase and you have not worked on it before ie in a shop that's different and if you are responsible would draw the line and not attempt the work even if you think you have an idea.