A retired Yank from Nebraska is coming to Edinburgh on a mission trip

[gskrusen]

To the right person, I would make it worth someone's time for a couple of hours of face to face instruction when I got there. I have over 34 years of electrical experience over a wide range of avenues. I will be coming to Scotland the 2d week of September. Would enjoy exchanging a few back and forth messages with some of you

 

[oscar21]

Sounds like you need Big Clive, he's in Edinburgh next week doing the tattoo thing.

What were you thinking of doing on this meet up, dismantle the hotel room to see how it all works?

 

[gskrusen]

That's funny, because it would have to be the whole hotel not just the room. Just looking to discuss the few differences between the European loop system and the North American branch system

 

[littlespark]

I’m in Scottish Borders, about an hour south of Edinburgh. Glad to be of any help, if I can.

Ps, we drive on the left over here

 

[gskrusen]

I’m in Scottish Borders, about an hour south of Edinburgh. Glad to be of any help, if I can.

Ps, we drive on the left over here

I always wondered why the steering wheel was on the wrong side of the vechicle

 

[gskrusen]

Sounds like you need Big Clive, he's in Edinburgh next week doing the tattoo thing.

What were you thinking of doing on this meet up, dismantle the hotel room to see how it all works?

That's funny, because it would have to be the whole hotel not just the room. Just looking to discuss the few differences between the European loop system and the North American branch system

 

[gskrusen]

Sounds like you need Big Clive, he's in Edinburgh next week doing the tattoo thing.

What were you thinking of doing on this meet up, dismantle the hotel room to see how it all works?

I will be in Edinburgh on the 7th and 8th of September, before I head north to the project.

 

[littlespark]

So what is the project?

The big difference is that we separate the outlets from the lighting circuits….

Is it “loop” as in “ loop in” lighting? Also known as 3-plate?

Your “branch” circuits will be called “radial” here

 

[pc1966]

I'm guessing the 'loop' mentioned by @gskrusen is our Ring Final Circuit?

It is very different to most of the world due to us having fused plugs, and so we can have 32A (or more, e.g. 45A cooker socket) feeds to the sockets independently of the size of appliance cable, etc. The RFC is really a copper-saving way to do that, and over a wider area, compared to the radial circuit.

A recent debate covered here:

Ring Final Circuit (RFC) versus Radial. Yes, again.

This is a topic that comes up a lot and seems to attract near-religious levels of fever in how folks argue over the choice of circuit for UK sockets. However, often the arguments are ill-informed or they veer off in to pointless corners, or sometimes get personal. This is my attempt to put a lot...

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[pc1966]

There are a few folks on here from Scotland, and can meet up depending on what you are doing, or you might want to call in to see some on your way depending on travel arrangements.

Edinburgh is an excellent place for a short stay (assuming you can afford the hotel cost!) as it has lots to do and a good range of historic buildings. Glasgow is also a good place to visit, has more of an industrial/trade history compared to Edinburgh (was more government/banking/etc) and also a wide range of touristy stuff to see and place to eat.

The other significant cities going north (Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness) are all OK but a step down in terms of tourism.

However, one aspect that is worth doing as a counter-point to the cities is a visit to some of the highlands for the scenery. The A9 road (or taking the train) north from Perth to Inverness gives you a good view, but its a tedious road at times and also a bit dangerous as it flips from single carriageway to dual carriageway (with the opposite pair invisible at times) multiple times making overtaking, etc, a danger. Add to that lots of obscure junctions and you can see why its high accident rate has been a sore point for duelling for years.

Of course many other scenic options depending on your time, areas of interest, and itinerary, are available. The west highland rail from Glasgow to Mallaig is another good option, but you really need to stay over as not practical to go there and back in one day.

Weather is always unpredictable, assume any of the 4 seasons (possibly more than one) will occur on any given day!

 

[littlespark]

Or if you want the middle of nowhere, with a duel carriageway, a vast array of farm machinery on the roads, and no one around for miles on end…

Welcome to the borders.


Oh…. We’ve got castles.

 

[oscar21]

I did 2 weeks work in Edinburgh last year, great place but very expensive, nearest place we could find to stay that was affordable was across the bridge in Aberdour which was quite nice as well.

We even managed a day on the lash on the Saturday in the city centre.

 

[gskrusen]

So what is the project?

The big difference is that we separate the outlets from the lighting circuits….

Is it “loop” as in “ loop in” lighting? Also known as 3-plate?

Your “branch” circuits will be called “radial” here

Yes in my research that is one of things I learned that lighting and outlets are separate. There are several language differences such as the radial reference, but we are both talking about the same thing. We are converting a small cottage into a large kitchen for a Christian youth camp. So they can feed all the kids as they stay there for the week. There will be blue prints and inspections. They are running a larger feeder cable underground to the cottage as we speak.

 

[gskrusen]

There are a few folks on here from Scotland, and can meet up depending on what you are doing, or you might want to call in to see some on your way depending on travel arrangements.

Edinburgh is an excellent place for a short stay (assuming you can afford the hotel cost!) as it has lots to do and a good range of historic buildings. Glasgow is also a good place to visit, has more of an industrial/trade history compared to Edinburgh (was more government/banking/etc) and also a wide range of touristy stuff to see and place to eat.

The other significant cities going north (Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness) are all OK but a step down in terms of tourism.

However, one aspect that is worth doing as a counter-point to the cities is a visit to some of the highlands for the scenery. The A9 road (or taking the train) north from Perth to Inverness gives you a good view, but its a tedious road at times and also a bit dangerous as it flips from single carriageway to dual carriageway (with the opposite pair invisible at times) multiple times making overtaking, etc, a danger. Add to that lots of obscure junctions and you can see why its high accident rate has been a sore point for duelling for years.

Of course many other scenic options depending on your time, areas of interest, and itinerary, are available. The west highland rail from Glasgow to Mallaig is another good option, but you really need to stay over as not practical to go there and back in one day.

Weather is always unpredictable, assume any of the 4 seasons (possibly more than one) will occur on any given day!

Thank you so much for that information. I have a place to stay about an hour north of Edinburgh, where I will stay for the 10 days I am there. I am coming to Scotland on a working mission trip. Won't have much time to sight see.

 

[DPG]

Remember to do the full suite of tests ( both live and dead testing). The required certs will need to be filled in as well.

Also recommend RCBOs rather than split load (aka dual RCD type) boards.

Above all, I hope you enjoy your trip to the UK!

 

[gskrusen]

There are a few folks on here from Scotland, and can meet up depending on what you are doing, or you might want to call in to see some on your way depending on travel arrangements.

Edinburgh is an excellent place for a short stay (assuming you can afford the hotel cost!) as it has lots to do and a good range of historic buildings. Glasgow is also a good place to visit, has more of an industrial/trade history compared to Edinburgh (was more government/banking/etc) and also a wide range of touristy stuff to see and place to eat.

The other significant cities going north (Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness) are all OK but a step down in terms of tourism.

However, one aspect that is worth doing as a counter-point to the cities is a visit to some of the highlands for the scenery. The A9 road (or taking the train) north from Perth to Inverness gives you a good view, but its a tedious road at times and also a bit dangerous as it flips from single carriageway to dual carriageway (with the opposite pair invisible at times) multiple times making overtaking, etc, a danger. Add to that lots of obscure junctions and you can see why its high accident rate has been a sore point for duelling for years.

Of course many other scenic options depending on your time, areas of interest, and itinerary, are available. The west highland rail from Glasgow to Mallaig is another good option, but you really need to stay over as not practical to go there and back in one day.

Weather is always unpredictable, assume any of the 4 seasons (possibly more than one) will occur on any given day!

It would great if you or someone you know could help me out. I will have transportation when I arrive. Our team of missionary workers are doing a build about an hour north of Edinburgh. I am the Electrician of the group. I'm waiting right now for my revised blue prints. I plan on having at least two more online chats with the architects. There is some preliminary work going on right now as we speak. I would just make me more comfortable being a little more informed on the electricial that's the same but called something else there.

 

[gskrusen]

Remember to do the full suite of tests ( both live and dead testing). The required certs will need to be filled in as well.

Also recommend RCBOs rather than split load (aka dual RCD type) boards.

Above all, I hope you enjoy your trip to the UK!

I agree, you need that over current protection

 

[pc1966]

Yes in my research that is one of things I learned that lighting and outlets are separate. There are several language differences such as the radial reference, but we are both talking about the same thing. We are converting a small cottage into a large kitchen for a Christian youth camp. So they can feed all the kids as they stay there for the week. There will be blue prints and inspections. They are running a larger feeder cable underground to the cottage as we speak.

The difference between UK & USA English is subtle and large at the same time.

For electrics here are a few that I can think of:

• panel = Distribution Board (DB) for commercial, or Consumer Unit (CU) for domestic work.
• breaker = Miniature Circuit Breaker (MCB) for small systems (to about 63A) or Moulded Case Circuit Breaker (MCCB) for larger stuff to 630A or so.
• GFCI = Residual Current Device (RCD) general case, or Residual Current Circuit Breaker (RCCB)
• AFCI = Arc Fault Detection Device (AFDD) here normally part of an RCBO (combined MCB & RCD)
• wire gauge = Cross Sectional Area (CSA) normally in mm^2 as actual area, not AWG (or SWG the old British style)
• ground = Earth, or Circuit Protective Conductor (CPC)
• hot = line / L ("live" strictly means current-carrying, so both L & N)
• cold = neutral / N
• wye = star

There are a range of other differences you will see. Obvious one is 50Hz instead of 60Hz, but most stuff here is 230V single-phase.

You do see 110V (as two-phase 55V-0V-55V) with yellow connectors on building sites for added safety, and occasionally 230V-0V-230V on rural properties, but generally if you need above 100A / 230V you get 3-phase here (400V delta / 230V wye) except for very large sites with private transformers where you might see 690V/400V 3-phase or event MV systems at 3.3kV or more.

The UK also likes fuses. Not just in our 13A plugs, but most installations have HRC fuses at the incomer and even MV motors, etc, often have fuses for fault protection. Related to this we have less of a focus on arc-flash energy limits, etc. Yes, it is still an issue on big sites but you won't see labels on everything warning you of energy levels as is see in the USA. It still pays to have a visor, gloves, etc, if working on big stuff as even with the energy limiting of fuses it can make for a VERY bad day.

As mentioned above, usually we treat light circuits as distinct from "power". Occasionally for something simple like a garage you might feed the lights off a 20A power socket circuit using a Fused Connection Unit (FCU) which is usually a switch and a fuse in the 3-13A region (3A typically for lights).

Normally we have the RCD/RCBO protecting the whole circuit (i.e. protective device is in the CU), not like the USA with GFCI/AFCI at the sockets themselves, but you do occasionally see RCD protected sockets here.

Due to our fused plugs and limited power demands it was common in old houses to maybe have just 3 circuits, cooker (30A), sockets (30A), and lights (5A) but today you would expect at least two light circuits and two socket circuits in most places, along with a few dedicated circuits like immersion heater, etc.

Also as @DPG mentioned we have a strong emphasis on testing, both:

• "dead" before energising where the insulation resistance is checked for obvious faults/damage at 500V (or 250V in some cases), and DC loop resistance of the live (hot) and CPC (ground wire) to prove both polarity and the fault clearing times will be met.
• "live" after energising to check the final circuit prospective fault current (PFC) / prospective short circuit current (PSCC) is within sane limits (i.e. that the MCB, etc, can safely clear a fault), the AC loop impedance 'Zs' is low enough for fault disconnection times to be met, and that RCD trip times are within specification.

 

[DPG]

I agree, you need that over current protection

Over current protection and also earth leakage protection.

Do you have a calibrated tester available or will you be hiring one?

 

[littlespark]

An hour north takes it Perthshire? Wrong side of the capital for me I’m afraid.