Apprentice "course"

[silva.foxx]

Hello guys, I'm sure by now you all realise how much I appreciate this section of ElectriciansForums, as I value all of your opinions!

I work in beverage manufacturing at the mo... that changes next month! :hurray:

I noticed the other day that our apprentice looked really fed up. He's only in onsite 1 day per week at the minute. This will be his second college year. I look back on my apprenticeship and, although it gave me a great grounding in my career, I don't feel it was very structured. I kinda got put with whoever would have me at the time.

I'd like to offer some sort of structure to aid the lad's learning whilst onsite. I'd like to offer some form of bench testing / practical work which can then be related to our machinery... ie. learn this then see it in practice on such'n'nsuch machine.

As this is just an off-the-cuff thought I'm thinking along the lines of:

Isolate and lock-off safely

Test circuits for dead correctly

Relay circuits

Insulation test motors, check for balance, ...

Navigate electrical drawings

Work on electrical power circuits safely

Work on control circuits, safety-circuits

Identify/change limit switches, proximities etc.

Check PLC inputs / outputs

Motor starters (DOL/YD) inverters / soft starts

Diagnose electrical faults

I'd really appreciate the advice of anyone who has done this or has contemplated a similar sort of thing.

regards
s.f

 

[Engineer54]

Great idea, but how much are you going to get through in that list, in just 4 days?? Stick to the basics, or you could inadvertently confuse the lad in such a short period of time. That is, if no-one else is going to step in after you leave next month??

 

[topquark]

In 4 days, I'd go for the first two and the last one, with most time spent on the last one. That'll serve him well in his future endevours.

 

[silva.foxx]

Thanks so far.

Please accept 4 days is irrelevant. I'd like to make this available as on ongoing concern for the lad and also develop something for future use as I'm sure apprenticeships will return in time.

I'd like to develop a series of papers for workshop use. I think I can have something decent to offer in less than four weeks, even if I don't see the lad develop. I'd just like him to have something to use and develop his basic fundamentals in the industrial environment.

At the plant there is so much available for learning and gaining experience. The documentation will be available for whoever gets to mentor the lad, to have an idea what to go over, show him, explain, have him question, exercise his interest, whatever... rather than be left to watch bits n bobs of nothing!

I remember one session during my time. The guy, a motor guru, took me through some motor control such as star-delta, plugging and DC injection braking. I loved it. Doing is experiencing... the purpose of apprenticeships.

 

[Knobhead]

During my apprenticeship I was occasionally put with tradesmen that seemed to resent you being there, these guys I was later to realise were the less competent ones.

The really competent ones would stand back and let me take the lead only stepping in if I asked or when I was going totally off track. The company were totally behind the EITB scheme where you had to do certain key “phase tests” during your apprenticeship to prove your competence. Every assistance would be given to you get these tests done even if it meant you going to deferent works around the country. Installation work was never my favourite thing. But when you’re given a job to do and told there’s no drawings, it’s up to you, I got interested.

I think a lot boils down to the companies attitude to training. If a section of the plant was shut down for a bit longer than usual while I bumbled around fault finding there were no repercussions on the tradesman in charge. I was “set up” a number of times by the tradesman arranging for a production manager to come ranting and raving at me to see how I coped under pressure.

 

[silva.foxx]

Personal interaction is definitely an element of the apprenticeship... especially when your tasked with fixing a piece of kit with four "managers" in the way. Even today... 12 years after my time finished... if the managers want to hinder you then the job takes longer - so p!$$0££ out of my way! I'm in control of this fix so leave me be :dita:.

 

[Guest123]

Big up to you S.F, there's not many that would give a dam about the young'un coming up through the ranks so I take my hat off to you.


I have lot's of different bits and bobs on the PC, PDF's, schematics, etc etc as I'm sure you do too.

If you need anything just give us shout. anything I dont have I can usually get from some where.


As for structuring the learning, I would go with whatever he shows most interest in firstly as this will fuel his hunger to learn by learning more about something he enjoys. After that he will be more eager to learn new things and expand his knowledge.

 

[Knobhead]

It takes confidence, courage and commitment to tell a manager to bugger off the first time. It comes with practice, and over the years I’ve plenty of practice!

The first time I told a manager to bugger off I was bricking myself afterwards. Just to pile on the misery the tradesman told me “Jack wants to see in his office NOW”!

Stuck my head around the office door to see a laughing face saying sorry for winding you up, come and sit down. Sitting over tea and biscuits he went on to explain the role of maintenance in the eyes of production, you’re a necessary unwanted evil! You’re a drain on profits, but unfortunately we need you.

We became good friends, he’d take time out to explain the chemical process to me. Talk about a steep learning curve, the electrical trade and chemistry combined. He also taught me people skills, he ruled with a rod of iron, but always fair.

It all paid back when I left the company to become a production manager in a totally different industry. The only thing he couldn’t teach me was how to deal with WOMEN in a factory environment, that I had to learn the hard way. NEVER AGAIN!

 

[johnboy6083]

I applaud you silva. I'm a qualified sparks, and I wish there were people like you to teach me the things I don't know much about, like instrumentation, and PLC's ect.
Good luck.
P.s I'm actually considering going into maintenance so I can get a HNC and learn the more technical side of being an electrician. It's reading yours, Tonys, Pmacs posts among others that are inspiring me.

 

[DurhamSparky]

my apprentship in navy was been sealed in a tin can and told i can get out when i am qualified!

 

[silva.foxx]

Thanks for the support and kind words, guys.

Whilst I'm on nights I've turned my desire for constructive info into destructive action... I've resorted to disassembling stuff to give a better view and understanding of devices.

I found a goosed Pilz, ruined it more to show the positive-guided contacts principle...

I was asked recently the difference between AC and DC relays, and why you can't use a DC relay in an AC circuit... as the requirement of a shading ring prevents the immediate breakdown of coil flux as AC passes the 0v...

Just a couple of easy examples I'd like to demonstrate to aid learning. I'm slowly starting to compile a list of things to concentrate on, such as understanding relay circuits before moving on to basic PLC, having multicores and have the lad trace through terminals and chase the cores, understanding voltage testing and identifying where there'll be potential difference in the circuit ie. across switches and loads, the direct-on-line motor starter to understand latching and adding remote start/stop, understand YD starters and set the o/l and timer plus understand the importance of electrical and mechanical interlocks. A big mystery I often see in work and on this site is the inability to determine star and delta connection on motors!! Shocking really...

I think sensors and actuators will be a big one along with understanding safety relays and e/stops. The list needs to be in some sort of order but not get to a stage where the lad will be confused with masses of info.

I don't think I'll get a great deal done in a month! Our stores has more than enough stock to be used as a training rig, and the plant has many real-world examples of what the guy can be bench taught.

 

[silva.foxx]

[h=1]Electrical Safety and Isolation[/h]
Understanding how to correctly Electrically Isolate
Voltage measurements on single-phase and three-phase systems
Safe use of electrical test instruments inclusive of multimeters, ‘meggers’, voltage testers, etc



[h=1]Distribution Circuits[/h]
Isolation, circuit protection, earthing
Identification of common components and features
Schematics with 1ph and 3ph distribution
Wiring colours and types
Transformer configurations and protection
Testing and fault diagnosis


[h=1]Control Panels[/h]
Correct cable glanding SWA, SY, Flexi-con
Correct terminating methods of crimps and ferrules
Control circuit drawings


[h=1]Relays and PLC Electrical Circuits[/h]
PNP, NPN, Sourcing, Sinking, normally-open n/o, normally-closed n/c, leading/trailing egde
Understanding relay logic such as AND, OR, XOR and relating to switches in circuits
Fault-finding
Safety relays… categories, construction, stop categories, Risk Analysis outline, emergency stops, door-switches, power-to-lock, power-to-unlock,
PLC operation, hardware / firmware / software / communications
Inputs and Outputs, connection and protection … interposing relays, snubbers, etc…
Basic programming in relation to previous relay learning


[h=1]Sensors and Actuators[/h]
Types of sensors such as optical (retro-reflective, direct-detect, through-beam, …), presence (proximity), thermal (thermocouples, RTDs), etc…
Types of actuators and their construction such as relays, solenoids, etc…
Encoders, resolvers, tachos, LVDTs
Discrete / digital / analogue


[h=1]Motors and Starters[/h]
Understanding AC motor nameplates
Identifying motors connected in star and delta configs
Electrical diagnostic testing of 3ph motors
Construction of starters using 24vdc control DOL, reversing, YD (setting o/l and timers)
Recognising devices such as inverters and soft-starters and understanding their differences
Understanding normal and abnormal operation and recognise fault conditions
Understanding application, function and operation of inverters and soft-starters
Correct installation and connection of starters and electronic power devices into circuits
Basic set-up and parameters, remote control, speed-referencing and feedback
Two speed motors
Dangers apparent when using test-equipments
Fault diagnostics


[h=1]Instrumentation[/h]
Ongoing…

 

[Knobhead]

Got to admire you Silva, there’s a full four years worth there already.

 

[silva.foxx]

It's no good just as a list though...

I'm on nights again tonight so may find time to start! :yawn:


Am I to believe nobody here has executed something along these lines yet/recently? Anyone here done any mentoring/teaching? :conehead:



I'll probably start then find another fad to be getting on with... like bass guitar... anyone selling one? unk:

 

[pmac10]

i did hear recently of someone trying this Silva, but the names left me.. oh hang on thats it, City & Guilds or was was it Edexcel?:smilewinkgrin:

 

[silva.foxx]

Yeah, cheers pmac...

They profess to teach you the theory but certainly not the practical, real-life stuff. That's left to the guys who accept these apprentices and promise them a good industrial tutoring. I'm sure our apprentice is taking in all the proton, neutron, electron bits - but that's the bloody boring shi+£.

He needs to get his hands on the looms and know how to cut the ends off his tie-wraps saves slitting the wrists of the next man.

Perhaps it'll be an idea to teach him about Danfoss inverters, eh? :smilewinkgrin:

.

 

[pmac10]

yeah, good call, still havn't encountered one yet despite having about 6 (of the same) tours so far of this vast new plant.
have you still got that trade test you came up with a while back for potential employees? that should give you few more ideas (if any more are needed!), there were a few things on there that i wasn't too hot on if i remember right, Profibus and Asi spring to mind.

(that tywrap thing is a pet hate of mine!)

 

[silva.foxx]

Wow... the gubbins of the MCB and RCD

Works of art!

 

[somersetsparks]

Well done silva, nice to see people who want to teach. I was lucky enough to have a decent rounded apprenticeship, albeit mainly in installation, although where i would really like to be is the maintenance side, as that is what takes my interest.
Even on a firm like mine, some lads get a pretty **** apprenticeship, sometimes not their fault at all and just a combination of bad luck, however it is normally combined with bad attitude on the apprentices part as well, especially if they do not appear to be interested early on and get a bad name.

p.s. that picture of an mcb reminds me of one I saw a couple years ago of an 'ebay' mcb which had no fancy stuff and was actually just a switch!

 

[silva.foxx]

Teach... I think all guys with apprentices want to teach. I think that where it all goes belly-up is when the mentor doesn't have the materials or ideas in which to teach. This is what got me thinking about it, having something prepared to be getting on with their development.

At the moment I'm just gathering all the info I can and trying to put it in some sort of order plus create a load of drawings... all time consuming without much to show yet.

Our apprentice is only in onsite one day per week until Christmas when he'll be in more often. So in reality I have until January to get it all done, but as said I'm moving on in October but wish this to be ongoing for whoever I meet, but I'd like keep in touch with current colleagues when I have gone so pass it on to the apprentice for January.

 

[vaughant]

For me,especially in industrial control,the most important thing is learning to read diagrams,it's incredible how many "sparks" I know haven't the first clue how to do it!!!
We've got 3 apprentices that come out with us on jobs and I always seem to get the "worst" one of the three,but he reminds me a lot of myself in that I was written off quite early on in my apprenticeship as someone who wouldn't make the grade(which I did with ease) probably cos I'm a bit loud and a bit of a clown sometimes.
He's not loud,but very opinionated and is held in very low regard compared with the other two,who I must say are excellent.
Like a lot of people of his generation,they can talk the talk but not walk the walk,he's got all the theory you could dream of but for one so young is very set in his ways,I think due to spending too much time with an old duffer who worked here.
He likes using words like "I'm going to use the CORRECT tool" etc rather than taking the blinkers off to see it can be done in far easier ways.
We spent a lot of time together just before I went off on my hols so I decided to test his knowledge of drawings with something a bit like this

I asked him why some of the symbols had circles on them,why some had a & on and some said >=1 to which understandably,he had little idea.

I then went through explaining that to get that last item to come on,we needed x and x or x or x etc,then we took the laptop out to the machine,logged on (no mean feat in S5!!!) and watched it in real time,then physically went to look for the items in the machine so he could relate to them in the diagram.

I was proud to say he went out on a fault the other day with a "spark" who had no idea,kept trying the usual off/on,phoned a few other people to try and get the answer to no avail.
The apprentice suggested getting the laptop,logged on to S5,found the input needed and traced it,through the diagram to find the terminal box ID,found a broken core in the cable,quite a nasty fault but he did it and now is getting a lot more recognition.

It's a nice feeling seeing people gain in confidence and for what your doing silva,you should be very proud.

 

[silva.foxx]

Cheers Vaughant

Step 5... well any Siemens stuff... means a steep learning curve but it's all good stuff! I like the tasks of getting a relay logic system converted to plc. Also transferring a Step 5 program into an RSLogix500 program.

Reading diagrams is to be a grande part of the tutorial. I'm very big on schematics and diagrams so the app. needs to understand these from the off. I have been fortunate to work with german, yankee and japanese schematics plus the Great British type so have a varied portfolio for the incumbent to master.

Also relay logic is a must. The foundation of all control begins with understanding the hardwired logic before moving anywhere near plcs. The construction of most motor starters comprises relay logic. I've worked with guys who struggle to understand motor connections. Don't get me wrong... I've struggled in the past with things that some have found so simple. I'm no Einstein. Somebody not understanding something simple is no disgrace. Everyday is a school day.

So I'm still in the hunter-gatherer stage, getting little bits onto paper, trawling through gigabytes of my hoards of PDFs and Word docs... but getting a good idea of what I want to achieve. I'm thinking of around 50-odd tasks - a bit hopeful - but there you go. Thanks for the interest and input.

.

 

[Knobhead]

I’ve got ModSoft and PL7 if you want copies and programs to go with them. But you will have to give me time to find them. Just moved to a new flat.

 

[silva.foxx]

Thanks Tony, that'll be great. Please get yourself settled first, then find them at your leisure. Thankyou.