Got to say that you really are barking up the wrong tree here.

OK; but why?

If they had spurred off the switched side of the spur for the W/M that would have been foolish...

Obviously so, but presumably your argument against them doing that would be not only the incompatability of the 13A cartridge fuse in the spur with the combi's 0.5mm sq supply flex but also the fact that to isolate the combi would also put another piece of equipment out of action. Yes?

but seems as though they have just spurred off the ring circuit.....Really cant see a problem

Except its departure from the spirit and letter of sec.314. So please someone, tell me how this arrangement satisfies this requirement.
 
Some things there are no 100% correct / incorrect answers for, you just have to make your own mind up, either way if it is fused correctly nobody will be in danger,,
We have probably all seen lights spurred off a ring if its difficult to get to a lighting circuit, is it correct, maybe maybe not, is it dangerous? not if its fused correctly.
Really think you need to make your own mind up
 
Phew. Thank goodness, that's cleared that one up then!

Seriously? That's the best answer? I thought we were logical people, dealing with facts 'n such?

I wasn't being funny, but sometimes we get a bee in our bonnet about someone or something and our minds blow it out of all proportion, it takes over our logic.
I feel that if it's safe and unlikely to cause a problem in the future ,make your judgement and move on,you're probably the only one getting stressed about it, "don't sweat the small stuff" move on to more important things like "what are you having on your sandwiches tomorrow"
 
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... either way if it is fused correctly nobody will be in danger,,

Thanks for the reply Sparks; but I thought I'd illustrated that the danger of the practice isn't particularly one of overload faults, providing as you say that the C/H spur is suitably fused down. We're not just obliged to consider the minimisation of direct risk from electrical faults (shock, fire etc) but also the minimisation of inconvenience and have regard in the design stage for the conditions of use. The danger in this case arises when an elderly person might be left with no means of winter heating in the event of a fault on the ring.

We have probably all seen lights spurred off a ring if its difficult to get to a lighting circuit,

True, but they are usually providing auxilliary lighting functions such as garden/patio lights, shed outhouses an so on never a dwelling's main lighting. In my experience it's never impossible to access the correct circuit, as you say it's about degrees of difficulty which on the ground translates into how conscientious, creative or lazy the installer is in finding his wiring route and how much a customer can afford.
In this instance there was minimal extra work involved for the installer, he just couldn't be bothered to do it right so the regs are put to one side for the sake of his expediency/profit and that sort of attitude really grips my ****.

...is it correct, maybe not, is it dangerous? not if its fused correctly.

That's comparing apples and pears really. The example you cite (sundry light dogged into power cct) isn't going to massively affect someone's life if it goes south, unnecessarily losing your only source of heat and hot water certainly will and in some circumstances seriously so.

Really think you need to make your own mind up

Well so far nothing I've read has made me moderate my objection to it and I'm still wanting to know why sec.314 doesn't apply here or can be applied selectively. ??
 
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The Regs as we know are not a statutory document and though it can be used in a court of law to confirm guilt or innocence it is still open to interpretation.

I have been asked about 6 times in both a domestic and industrial situation to look at a situation where the loss of a supply and also a shock incident occured if blame could be apportioned to the installer. Everyone of these incidents resulted in a non prosecution as it would have be tremdously difficult to apportion blame.

While I commend your stance on this, you are going to have to step back and see what the result of this installation will be. Correctly you say that if a fault developed on the washing machine it will take off the CH boiler that controls your Aunt's heating. But can you say that in regulation 314.2 that the consequences would be dire, inconvinient yes, but not dire.

Could we say that a cooker/ hob that was electrical should not be on an RCD where a socket can trip them, as the very loss of cooking can also be life threatening. You can have a microwave. oven to get by on, the same as you could have a couple of fan heaters to get by on, before someone can come out and rectify the problem.

As for the other sections of the regulations 314, again how far would you reasonably go to minimise inconvenience, it would be far better to have an installation with perhaps 10-12 mini DNO heads each feeding an individual single way board, that feeds individual circuits within the house.

Yes there is a logical reason to have a boiler on it's own circuit, but often many considerations have to be taken into account, There are no regluations insisting on this and so it is not therefore compulsory to do so. Thre bottom line to this is if the boiler did trip due to a fault on the ring final, could you envisage winning a compensation claim by citing regulations 314 .............I doubt that very much.
 
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Nice one Malcolm, we're getting closer...

The Regs as we know are not a statutory document and though it can be used in a court of law to confirm guilt or innocence it is still open to interpretation.

Dunno so much about that, the wording of 314 is pretty unequivocal. Can't see much 'wiggle room' there.

I have been asked about 6 times in both a domestic and industrial situation to look at a situation where the loss of a supply and also a shock incident occured if blame could be apportioned to the installer. Everyone of these incidents resulted in a non prosecution as it would have be tremdously difficult to apportion blame.

Difficult to comment without knowing the circumstances but point taken.

...But can you say that in regulation 314.2 that the consequences would be dire, inconvinient yes, but not dire.

There is no qualitative guidance given in 314.2 advising on degrees of 'direness' but I suppose if you're 80yrs old, frail, living alone and cut off by snow then I'd say yes the consequences could and would be extremely dire. If you examine the wording as I'm sure you have, it states;

"Seperate circuits SHALL be provided for parts of the installation which need to be seperately controlled..." - In my opininon a dwelling's whole heating and hot water system amply deserves its status as a principal circuit and therefore requires seperate control.
"...in such a way that those circuits are not affected by the failure of other circuits..." - which it undoubtedly will be in its current state therefore it fails here.
"...and due account SHALL be taken of the consequences of the operation of any single protective device." - Which is what they've failed to do here. Just can't see how they could possibly wangle a compliance out of that lot unless they're demoting the status of a whole heating/HW system to the equivalence of a bell Xformer?

Could we say that a cooker/ hob that was electrical should not be on an RCD where a socket can trip them, as the very loss of cooking can also be life threatening.

No of course we couldn't because the risk of shock from having a big lump of electrified metal in your kitchen is more immediately life threatening than a simple malfunction or overload and so that is the risk that must be given precedence.

You can have a microwave. oven to get by on, the same as you could have a couple of fan heaters to get by on, before someone can come out and rectify the problem.

All of which assume prior ownership. Not an assumption I think is valid, crikey I don't think we've even got one in the house/loft/garage now I think about it!:D

As for the other sections of the regulations 314, again how far would you reasonably go to minimise inconvenience,...

Coupla metres of cable and a length of MT4? Spare breaker in the board just waiting to receive it? Doesn't seem too onerous to me and well within the scope of work that's reasonably expected of someone who professeses to be an installer of central heating systems.

it would be far better to have an installation with perhaps 10-12 mini DNO heads...

It's called a consumer unit isn't it?;)

Yes there is a logical reason to have a boiler on it's own circuit,

several very good ones in fact

...but often many considerations have to be taken into account,

the idleness and convenience of the sub-contractor isn't one of them though is it?

There are no regluations insisting on this and so it is not therefore compulsory to do so.

Even though that's exactly what the wording and intention of sec. 314 requires?

Thre bottom line to this is if the boiler did trip due to a fault on the ring final,

No "if" about it is there? if the ring goes down so does the heating and H/W.

...could you envisage winning a compensation claim by citing regulations 314 .............I doubt that very much.

Well that's a different bucket of whelks altogether, can open, worms all over the gaff!
 
Unfortunately the IET and the rest of the electrical industry do not share your interpretation of regulations 314 .................if the IET considered a boiler to be in the same category as a fire alarm then it would be included in the safety services section and the requirements of additional back up systems ie battery for one, would be warrented.

I'm sorry you can bat this around all day, but the bottom line is that a CH boiler under any circumstances does not evoke regulation 314.2 and I think I'm about the 4 or 5 th poster that disagrees with you, but of course if you wish there is nothing stopping you in running your aunts boiler with a new supply, and any consquent boiler the same. You would be within the regulations to do so.
 
Carter,I fail see your interpretation of the regs, to fit the circumstances, has much if any support thus far
Even the most stalwart of proposers of a view should/must ( that was a deliberate choice of words :D) take into account those alternative interpretations, even though they oppose your own,simply because of that overwhelming opposition that you face

Obviously you are not wrong that a seperate circuit for c/h is an improvement on a non seperate circuit
Whether that improvemnet is required or necessary is an issue you alone "or in a minority" see as of importance
 
I wasn't being funny, but sometimes we get a bee in our bonnet about someone or something and our minds blow it out of all proportion, it takes over our logic.

Oh I'm aware of that mate, but in this instance (and over four hundred others don't forget) someone has dropped the ball or taken the **** for the sake of an easy life and to someone else's detriment. Oh and all using public money as well.

...you're probably the only one getting stressed about it,

:D 'Fraid not Giio, following several telephone conversations with their Clerk of Works who rather shame-facedly revealed he was from a plumbing background but "I've got me Part P and I can put the NICEIC logo on my van!"
I told him to refer it up to his electrical specifying engineer and come back to me with a definitive answer. It seems I've set a rabbit loose as I've had no response to the question other than an offer by return to install a dedicated circuit as requested (hmmmm) and would I be willing to receive a site visit from him and said engineer to discuss the issue in detail?

Well of course says I, no problem with that, but why do I need a visit from your engineer? Does it comply or not? Simple enough question isn't it? So it seems they admit there's an issue to address here as; margins on Hsg. Assoc. maintenance contracts being what they are, I expected a flat refusal to entertain any remedial work. Now if they think there is a problem with this one of sufficient magnitude to wipe out their profit on the job then the implications are very far reaching indeed. What's the betting that it's been reproduced parrot fashion across the country's Hsg. Assocs.?

Should be an interesting meeting. Smoke me a kipper!
 
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Lol .....................love this wish, I was that engineer in question.

So now this company is going to have to risk assess every installation they do regarding a CH boiler installation.

Ok number 27 is an 80 yr old woman so 314.2 invoked .........seperate boiler circuit

Ok number 29 young family with a bay .....hmmmmm yes go on then invoke 314.2 seperate boiler circuit

Ok number 31 couple of young lads .......oh they are ok spur the boiler

Ok number 33 75 yr old woman but has a 44 yr old son living with her .............hmmmm no they will be ok spur the boiler circuit

hold on chief number 29 have moved out and a family with no children have moved in ............ok then un-invoke that 314.2 as they are Ok spur now for the boiler circuit

all the above is nonsense ......................
 
Lol .....................love this wish, I was that engineer in question.

So now this company is going to have to risk assess every installation they do regarding a CH boiler installation.

Ok number 27 is an 80 yr old woman so 314.2 invoked .........seperate boiler circuit

Ok number 29 young family with a bay .....hmmmmm yes go on then invoke 314.2 seperate boiler circuit

Ok number 31 couple of young lads .......oh they are ok spur the boiler

Ok number 33 75 yr old woman but has a 44 yr old son living with her .............hmmmm no they will be ok spur the boiler circuit

hold on chief number 29 have moved out and a family with no children have moved in ............ok then un-invoke that 314.2 as they are Ok spur now for the boiler circuit

Or they could have just done the right thing in the first place and kept the seperate feed, lot easier. The regs can neither be 'invoked' any more than they can be ignored, they are what they are.

all the above is nonsense ......................

We'll have to wait and see. Moreover, why would they immediately come back with an offer to install a seperate circuit without so much as a quibble if they didn't think they were on shakey ground?
 
just had to have my say there is absolutley nothing wrong with spuring off ring for a ch boiler,fan heater,security light and a number of other items, yes good idea to put all of the above on dedicated circuits but no reg says we need to.if we carried out rewire. new build we would all try (i hope) to pull a lot more circuits 3 maybe 4 rings 3 or 4 lighting etc. are you saying ring has more chance of a fault than a ch boiler circuit. if the company in question issued a minor works certificate call there conforming body ie nic ,nappit etc and they WILL agree with me (30 yrs exp. and nic approved 18 years and many boilers spured) p.s. company in question carried out 400 jobs like this if they went back to cu on all these cost goes up less jobs and maybe poor old carters auntie no new boiler.
 
My god i cant believe this discussion has gone on for this long! There is nothing wrong with what has been done! Yes it may not be best practice, personally i would not do it, but is it really that dangerous? At the end of the day as long as the boiler is fused down correctly and it is clearly marked up at the DB its fine. If its bothering you that much why dont you get onto this housing associations scheme provider and tell them of all the wrong theyre doing and see what they say?
Other examples, people spur off socket circuits to feed maybe a garden light or two and to be honest it wouldnt be my first choice of how to do the job, but aslong as its fused down etc, then its complies. As you will know yourself, cost is a massive part for the customer and we cant always do a job to our own personal standards as it may involve extra cost. Housing associations arent immune to this extra cost either. I just think theres bigger problems in the world then that someone has spurred for the boiler from the RFC.
 

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