Differences of opinion!!

[Jay Sparks]

So Ive been following a thread in the open forum about supp bonding. Fascinating as the thread is, its quite clear that there are 2 or 3 electricians that have opposite opinions about the use of supp bonding. And thats not counting the ones who have read it and not added their two pence worth.

What has got me thinking is what other things do electricians have such a big difference of opinions on??? I'm not talking about training, scams and the like...just genuine practical application of electrical installations.

There has been many posts about the poor teachings of new electricians in this country and I am starting to think of how many electrical tutors have differences of opinion about certain things? If you are adamant that you are right but your colleague also thinks he is right, where does that leave the students? They will be getting told two or three different things. Surely this cant be good?

Just an example, I was talking to some students the other day and they had been told, by a tutor that LV is up to 500v! Yet most electricians I know say it up to 1000v and this is also what I was taught.

Now I'm not sure how you could fix it but it really does need sorting out.
Anyway rant over.

Jay

 

[trev]

I think in the case of a difference of opinion you have to abide by what the IEE decides is the definition. The LV thing is a perfect example, it's defined in the regs so how anyone can get it wrong is beyond me.

 

[Jay Sparks]

I think in the case of a difference of opinion you have to abide by what the IEE decides is the definition. The LV thing is a perfect example, it's defined in the regs so how anyone can get it wrong is beyond me.

This was a tutor that had been a spark for 20 or so years. He was also telling them to IR test 230v syetems on 1000v dc. It just makes me think of anything else tutors may disagree on. And not just the regs stuff which as we all know isnt the best anyway..

 

[trev]

Hell yeah the regs are massively open to interpretation but some things are there in black and white and it's those things that I'm talking about. As far as the testing side goes then GN3 is the be all and end all as far as I'm concerned.
I guess my point is that when ever there's a difference of opinion there is a book somewhere which is universally respected in the trade which will give you the absolute chapter and verse of what it is you're arguing about.
Perhaps those tutors you're talking about need to re-examine their vocation.

 

[Paul.M]

Agree with you Jay. 50-1000V AC is low voltage, why are they saying any different to students?

 

[Jay Sparks]

Hell yeah the regs are massively open to interpretation but some things are there in black and white and it's those things that I'm talking about. As far as the testing side goes then GN3 is the be all and end all as far as I'm concerned.
I guess my point is that when ever there's a difference of opinion there is a book somewhere which is universally respected in the trade which will give you the absolute chapter and verse of what it is you're arguing about.
Perhaps those tutors you're talking about need to re-examine their vocation.

But some people misinterpret these books and that's where it all starts..lol

 

[Jay Sparks]

Agree with you Jay. 50-1000V AC is low voltage, why are they saying any different to students?

God knows Paul. But he has been a sparky for yonks, so he should know, or maybe it was different back in the day!

 

[trev]

It's very easy to misinterpret some things in the regs but when it says, for example, low voltage is X how can you argue against it. Similarly with the test voltage thing

 

[trev]

God knows Paul. But he has been a sparky for yonks, so he should know, or maybe it was different back in the day!

That's been the definition for as long as I can remember (1500v ripple free dc too of course)

 

[D Skelton]

So Ive been following a thread in the open forum about supp bonding. Fascinating as the thread is, its quite clear that there are 2 or 3 electricians that have opposite opinions about the use of supp bonding. And thats not counting the ones who have read it and not added their two pence worth.

I don't think any of us have a difference of opinion as to the use of supp bonding, it's application is as clear as mud in the regs. What we were mainly disagreeing on is how we would approach a situation whilst carrying out an EICR whereby supp bonding was not visible and there was no RCD and how we would then code it depending on our results/findings.

What has got me thinking is what other things do electricians have such a big difference of opinions on??? I'm not talking about training, scams and the like...just genuine practical application of electrical installations.

TT systems and their earthing! The dreaded 200ohms! That is one that often gets the juices flowing on here! Just ask Eng, myself or Wirepuller to point you in the direction of many heated debates on the subject haha!

There has been many posts about the poor teachings of new electricians in this country and I am starting to think of how many electrical tutors have differences of opinion about certain things? If you are adamant that you are right but your colleague also thinks he is right, where does that leave the students? They will be getting told two or three different things. Surely this cant be good?

The best tutors will be teaching their students that a lot of regulations are never black or white. They will happily enter into discussion regarding the interpretation of many regs and I'm sure would be happy to have their views challenged as it keeps them on their toes!

Just an example, I was talking to some students the other day and they had been told, by a tutor that LV is up to 500v! Yet most electricians I know say it up to 1000v and this is also what I was taught.

Some tutors however are crap! lol. I had a few terrible tutors whilst I was at college, luckily I sussed them out pretty quickly! Still, I look back now and the fundamental flaws in their knowledge were absolutely shocking! I did manage to have an absolutely brilliant tutor in my third year however, I owe everything I have to this man for without him I wouldn't be where I am today! I still managed to come out of college with a little bit of duff information though, but that is the beauty of working alongside other skilled electricians and also being a member of a decent forum. You get put right pretty damn quick!

Now I'm not sure how you could fix it but it really does need sorting out.
Anyway rant over.

Jay

Go talk to Michael Gove, the whole education system in this country is in dire need of reform!

I wouldn't bother waiting for anything to happen though mate. The country as a whole is up $hit creek without a paddle! The least of anyones worries will be our education system which as bad as it is, is still one of the best in the world!

 

[Paul.M]

@ Jay. Sounds like your right into your new role I'm working in your neck of the woods (kind of, your on my way home). Fancy a cuppa any day next week at about 5pm? Give us a call.

PS. Is your leg still broken?

 

[Jay Sparks]

Well I have been brought up to respect my elders and he's been a sparks a lot longer than me so who am I to tell him he's wrong????? (I did by the way, he didn't like it!!lol)

 

[Jay Sparks]

I don't think any of us have a difference of opinion as to the use of supp bonding, it's application is as clear as mud in the regs. What we were mainly disagreeing on is how we would approach a situation whilst carrying out an EICR whereby supp bonding was not visible and there was no RCD and how we would then code it depending on our results/findings.



TT systems and their earthing! The dreaded 200ohms! That is one that often gets the juices flowing on here! Just ask Eng, myself or Wirepuller to point you in the direction of many heated debates on the subject haha!



The best tutors will be teaching their students that a lot of regulations are never black or white. They will happily enter into discussion regarding the interpretation of many regs and I'm sure would be happy to have their views challenged as it keeps them on their toes!



Some tutors however are crap! lol. I had a few terrible tutors whilst I was at college, luckily I sussed them out pretty quickly! Still, I look back now and the fundamental flaws in their knowledge were absolutely shocking! I did manage to have an absolutely brilliant tutor in my third year however, I owe everything I have to this man for without him I wouldn't be where I am today! I still managed to come out of college with a little bit of duff information though, but that is the beauty of working alongside other skilled electricians and also being a member of a decent forum. You get put right pretty damn quick!



Go talk to Michael Gove, the whole education system in this country is in dire need of reform!

I wouldn't bother waiting for anything to happen though mate. The country as a whole is up $hit creek without a paddle! The least of anyones worries will be our education system which as bad as it is, is still one of the best in the world!

These discussions are the ones I am talking about. You all argue your point really well. And a lot of it is very interesting. But thats kind of my point. Lets say you have a class in the morning doing the new NVQ and you give them your take on the dreaded 200 ohms tt thing!! Then they have a lesson in the afternoon with E54 and he tells them a totally different thing!! Is that not going to confuse them??? You will both stand your ground and fight your corner but the students wont yet have the knowledge to decide which one of you is right. And this is one example...I bet theres loads more things that we all disagree on.

 

[Jay Sparks]

@ Jay. Sounds like your right into your new role I'm working in your neck of the woods (kind of, your on my way home). Fancy a cuppa any day next week at about 5pm? Give us a call.

PS. Is your leg still broken?

Ill give you a bell mate. Tues will be good for me.

 

[trev]

Lets say you have a class in the morning doing the new NVQ and you give them your take on the dreaded 200 ohms tt thing!! Then they have a lesson in the afternoon with E54 and he tells them a totally different thing!! Is that not going to confuse them???

Any lecturer worth his salt would say that the regs say this but in practice x is what you should really be aiming for

 

[Paul.M]

Ill give you a bell mate. Tues will be good for me.

A ginger biscuit with that cuppa will be great.

 

[Jay Sparks]

A ginger biscuit with that cuppa will be great.

I dont have THEM type biscuits in my house...how dare you!!

 

[D Skelton]

These discussions are the ones I am talking about. You all argue your point really well. And a lot of it is very interesting. But thats kind of my point. Lets say you have a class in the morning doing the new NVQ and you give them your take on the dreaded 200 ohms tt thing!! Then they have a lesson in the afternoon with E54 and he tells them a totally different thing!! Is that not going to confuse them??? You will both stand your ground and fight your corner but the students wont yet have the knowledge to decide which one of you is right. And this is one example...I bet theres loads more things that we all disagree on.

Hopefully not, those engaged enough should be able to discuss the pros and cons (if any) of either decision. Any decent college though would have a good enough staff team who would have discussed their differences prior to any teaching and decided the best way to proceed giving the students consistency of information. Those differences that are brought to light by the students would be discussed in the same way in the staff room and hopefully by next lesson both tutors would be singing from the same hymn sheet having either reached a conclusion or at least having compromised on their views and deecided the best way to approach the subject with current and future trainees.

 

[Jay Sparks]

Hopefully not, those engaged enough should be able to discuss the pros and cons (if any) of either decision. Any decent college though would have a good enough staff team who would have discussed their differences prior to any teaching and decided the best way to proceed giving the students consistency of information. Those differences that are brought to light by the students would be discussed in the same way in the staff room and hopefully by next lesson both tutors would be singing from the same hymn sheet having either reached a conclusion or at least having compromised on their views and deecided the best way to approach the subject with current and future trainees.[/QUOte/

That's what should happen but in many cases I don't think it does. A lot of tutor's and sparks alike can be stubborn. A tutor who's been teaching for a few decades isn't going to listen to one thats new to teaching....even if the new one is correct. I'm not saying all will be like this but I bet alot are.

 

[D Skelton]

Oh I don't disagree with you mate, but that is why every electrical department in every college should have a highly experienced head of department that will crack heads together if need be!

 

[SirKit Breaker]

In days gone by, things may have been different, and i agree with you lot, there are a set of standards to follow, and they answer all of the questions we need answering. Tutors should only preach the facts, the problem is that most of them can't be arsed to stay up to date with the requirements.

Don't get me wrong, i am not perfect, and there are bits and bats that catch me out now and again, but this is usually highlighted by course delegates, and i then check up on what they have told me, and change myself to suit if needs be.

Even as a tutor i learn something new on every course that i deliver, this is because i don't know it all, and neither do i claim to. Tutors, myself included should have a mandatory requirement to keep up to date, and also be assessed at frequent intervals to ensure this is happening. as a matter of course, when things update like the wiring regs, I will sit the exams, and have a nosey through the changes, Ok wiring regs are not the most inspiring read, but it is my job, and people pay good money to be told the right things, so it is important that i get it right as far as possible.


Cheers…………Howard

 

[Jay Sparks]

Oh I don't disagree with you mate, but that is why every electrical department in every college should have a highly experienced head of department that will crack heads together if need be!

Some day I will...lol

 

[spark 68]

Bloody hell, I kept out of that thread for the most part lol

My opinion on that one is similar to Geoffs and Damiens method by testing across the ECPs on an EICR where the SB was inaccessible and no RCD I would code one of two ways depending on the rest of the install.

For domestic only
If it was in good condition and reasonable only did not comply to current regs, and provided it tested out ok (between ECPs in the bathroom) all other things being equal it would seem harsh to give a C2 in that situation I would give a C3.

If it was a mess and had other C2s or even C1s I would C2 it, but then again if the remedials entailed fitting RCD protection it would in most cases negate this point anyway.

 

[Jay Sparks]

Bloody hell, I kept out of that thread for the most part lol

My opinion on that one is similar to Geoffs and Damiens method by testing across the ECPs on an EICR where the SB was inaccessible and no RCD I would code one of two ways depending on the rest of the install.

For dometic only
If it was in good condition and reasonable only did not comply to current regs, and provided it tested out ok (between ECPs in the bathroom) all other things being equal it would seem harsh to give a C2 in that situation I would give a C3.

If it was a mess and had other C2s or even C1s I would C2 it, but then again if the remedials entailed fitting RCD protection it would in most cases negate this point anyway.

I wasnt having a pop at the thread or any of the opinions. I myself have had heated debates about what I believe and what others dont. I just wondered how many other things people differ over and whether that can affect the teaching of new sparks.

Jay

 

[spark 68]

Hi Jay I added a lol on the end, because I cannot add smileys.

No it as an interesting thread, I have a slight difference of opinion here:http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...cal-regulations/88385-what-size-your-cpc.html

lol

 

[Jay Sparks]

Hi Jay I added a lol on the end, because I cannot add smileys.

No it as an interesting thread, I have a slight difference of opinion here:http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...cal-regulations/88385-what-size-your-cpc.html



lol

I think there are hundreds of threads on here where people have disagreed on certain things. I wonder if the wet heads or wood butchers have the same problem???Then again, they probably wouldn't even know if they did.

 

[Engineer54]

Any lecturer worth his salt would say that the regs say this but in practice x is what you should really be aiming for

How many of the college tutors of today, have that much ''know how/experience'' with TT systems and/or it's derivatives? It's quite an extensive subject in it's own right, very little of which comes even close to getting a mention in the holy BGB!!

The whole section on TT systems within BS7671 and it's guidance notes, needs a complete overhaul, with far better guidance being given on minimum Ra values and the importance of the systems stability.

Banning the use of those short 3/8'' thin twigs wouldn't be a bad place to start either!! You'll never make a TT system out of those bloody useless things come rain or shine!! lol!!

 

[Darkwood]

Just backtracking a minute here regarding Low Voltage systems and definitions ... its been discussed here but although ive quickly scanned this thread i see no-one actually point out a glaring fact in that Voltage in this instance is measured between 2 points ... the subject has been discussed without anyone actually stating the ref' points so how can you comment on a value without it.

Low Voltage - Exceeding extra-low voltage but not exceeding 1000V ac or 1500V dc BETWEEN CONDUCTORS or 600V ac or 900V dc BETWEEN CONDUCTORS AND EARTH.

It seems strange to discuss such a subject without mentioning what the voltage is between as this is key to the permitted value.

NOTE! - This is extracted from the BS7671 itself but is an old hat in its description as regulations have been updated and changed over the years i feel as functional earthing is now part of the regulations it would be better reworded to say BETWEEN LIVE CONDUCTORS and respectively BETWEEN LIVE CONDUCTORS AND EARTH.

 

[Jay Sparks]

Just backtracking a minute here regarding Low Voltage systems and definitions ... its been discussed here but although ive quickly scanned this thread i see no-one actually point out a glaring fact in that Voltage in this instance is measured between 2 points ... the subject has been discussed without anyone actually stating the ref' points so how can you comment on a value without it.

Low Voltage - Exceeding extra-low voltage but not exceeding 1000V ac or 1500V dc BETWEEN CONDUCTORS or 600V ac or 900V dc BETWEEN CONDUCTORS AND EARTH.

It seems strange to discuss such a subject without mentioning what the voltage is between as this is key to the permitted value.

NOTE! - This is extracted from the BS7671 itself but is an old hat in its description as regulations have been updated and changed over the years i feel as functional earthing is now part of the regulations it would be better reworded to say BETWEEN LIVE CONDUCTORS and respectively BETWEEN LIVE CONDUCTORS AND EARTH.

Hi DW,


This thread isn't about LV. I just used it as an example of one persons opinion. Hence the reason I didn't go into the technical/cotrect interpritstion. The thread is about the differences electricians have on certain matters and in particular, tutors. Would this have an affect on the students if they are getting told different things by different tutors?




Jay

 

[Silly Sausage]

I think a lot of the problem is the way they are written. (See another thread)
One reg in question, I was thinking WTF with the last part of it, but with numerous re-readings and keeping in mind the earlier parts, it eventually becomes clear.
When a reg makes reference to one or more other regs, that's when it gets really confusing!!!

 

[spark 68]

Because as you say Archy, they are written in "legalese" (lawyer speak), and when the sh*t hits the fan (connected to the shower lol), the best lawyer in court wins.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Because as you say Archy, they are written in "legalese" (lawyer speak), and when the sh*t hits the fan (connected to the shower lol), the best lawyer in court wins.

Hahaha..I was thinking earlier, proper Legal speak makes the regs look a Ladybird book!

 

[Jay Sparks]

Ive heard sparks say that putting a joint box under floor boards is ok because unless its tiled, its accessible. Even though you would probably have to use a tool, technically it is accessible but I still see it as inaccessible. Their version of inaccessible is in the actual fabric of the building i.e. in the plaster or concrete. Again its just another person take on a certain thing.

Jay

 

[Silly Sausage]

Accessible to me means turning a handle or key, or undoing 2,3,or 4 screws at an accessory or piece of equipment.
Hidden under a floor or in wall is definitely not.

 

[Jay Sparks]

Accessible to me means turning a handle or key, or undoing 2,3,or 4 screws at an accessory or piece of equipment.
Hidden under a floor or in wall is definitely not.

This is my point Archy. This is your interpretation and mine but to others it may mean something different. It all depends on the individual. And its ok thinking I'm right, your wrong but its not that simple.

 

[D Skelton]

It's accessible to me unless encased in carbonite within in a concrete, steel and depleted uranium lined bunker with the doors triple welded shut!

My demo hammer makes light work of anything anyone on here deems 'inaccessible'!

Floorboards? Pah!
Plaster? Pah!
Brick? Pah!

"What's that Mrs Jones? Your last electrician said you had an inaccessible junction box somewhere within the property? Never fear, I'll get to work!!!!!"



"Found it!"

 

[ipf]

It's accessible to me unless encased in carbonite within in a concrete, steel and depleted uranium lined bunker with the doors triple welded shut!

My demo hammer makes light work of anything anyone on here deems 'inaccessible'!

Floorboards? Pah!
Plaster? Pah!
Brick? Pah!

"What's that Mrs Jones? Your last electrician said you had an inaccessible junction box somewhere within the property? Never fear, I'll get to work!!!!!"

View attachment 23395

"Found it!"

I think Damian and Mrs Jones have 'got a thing going on':musical_note:

 

[Silly Sausage]

This is my point Archy. This is your interpretation and mine but to others it may mean something different. It all depends on the individual. And its ok thinking I'm right, your wrong but its not that simple.

Just common sense, if it only takes < a minute or two max, and doesn't cause any excessive damage (as previous post ), it's accessible.
As for other regs, as before, just got to get that clarity of thought.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Just crimp it.

 

[Des 56]

Do you have an inaccessible junction box that needs inspection ?
Let Grittish Bass look after your world !

(No members of the public were harmed in the making of this picture)




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's because,the householder was down the bank,she was dipping in to her life savings to pay Gritish bas for the inspection,
A spokesperson later stated "the junction box just had to be somewhere"