Dodgy LayZSpa

[marcuswareham]

No not on my one (same as the top picture) No earthings what so ever. That’s why I think that their first models were so dangerous, there is absolutely nowhere for electricity (Albeit if shorted to the heater block) to go other than directly into the water

Not having an earth does not automatically make it dangerous there are reasons the manufacturer might not want it to have an earth and instead make it class 2 (double insulated) A big reason could be for it being plugged into PME / TNCS earthing arrangement (youtube john ward PEN failure if want to understand more) also with these units being outside most of the time a metal cased item with exspsoed conductive parts is subject to corrosion

The instructions clearly state must be plugged into an RCD protected socket (for extra protection), most houses from 16th edition have the socket ring final circuits RCD protected, and if not the user can buy plug in inline RCDs

A double insulated device is not dangerous in good condition, if you take a double insulated electric drill smash the case so badly you can touch live terminals inside and presenting a shock risk, this does not mean the product was originally dangerous. (Although maybe the Layzspa needed to have better build quality)

Banging in and earth rod as you say (without testing the rod for its effectiveness) is not a solution

 

[Steviecuk]

Not having an earth does not automatically make it dangerous there are reasons the manufacturer might not want it to have an earth and instead make it class 2 (double insulated) A big reason could be for it being plugged into PME / TNCS earthing arrangement (youtube john ward PEN failure if want to understand more) also with these units being outside most of the time a metal cased item with exspsoed conductive parts is subject to corrosion

Great video and I do get that now. However it appears to be a vicious circle. On the other side is that if there is no break in the neutral before the N/E split, and the metal housing of the heating element shorts live, someone dies. I would have thought there is much more chance of that happening than the N/E breaking no? And given that the company have started making it that way suggests the noticed this and put it right??

Aren't modern houses grounded using a dedicated rod now? Mine is 11 years old.

The instructions clearly state must be plugged into an RCD protected socket (for extra protection), most houses from 16th edition have the socket ring final circuits RCD protected,

It is protected via a 30mA RCD.

A double insulated device is not dangerous in good condition, if you take a double insulated electric drill smash the case so badly you can touch live terminals inside and presenting a shock risk, this does not mean the product was originally dangerous.

I get that, but I haven't smashed it open, the ceramic heater has naturally broken down and shorted against the metal casing of the heater making the entire spa go live. Wouldn't it of been the proper way to ensure that this is protected against should it happen? This is the point I'm trying to get at.

Banging in and earth rod as you say (without testing the rod for its effectiveness) is not a solution

I'm not using it, I only did that so that it was relatively safe whilst I was conducting tests. I'm not saying its a permeant and adequate fix.
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If that was mine I’d skip it and buy a new pump unit for the spa, I wouldn’t be risking getting in there at all, it’s dangerous.

Thats excellent thank you for confirming this.

I will be skipping it but my point is I think they should be liable for making a product that can easily be made to make the water live without any apparent safety features. Well, I mean it happened didn't it! I was electrocuted... lucky it wasn't 230v or I'd likely be dead!
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Not having an earth does not automatically make it dangerous there are reasons the manufacturer might not want it to have an earth and instead make it class 2 (double insulated)

I have just read this:
Class II[edit]

Class II symbol
A Class II or double insulated electrical appliance is one which has been designed in such a way that it does not require a safety connection to electrical earth (ground).

The basic requirement is that no single failure can result in dangerous voltage becoming exposed so that it might cause an electric shock and that this is achieved without relying on an earthed metal casing. This is usually achieved at least in part by having at least two layers of insulating material between live parts and the user, or by using reinforced insulation.

Assuming that that is all correct, There is only the one insulated case that is between the metal housing of the heater and the outside world. However there is NO insulated casing in between the metal/ceramic heating element and the water that runs straight through it and so no insulation from making the water live.
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I have just checked the label and it does in fact have the Class II label. However my question above still stands, how can this be two pieces of insulated material between the end user and the live live parts should it fail? Or doesn't it matter if it fails and goes live? The fact that the water has gone live AND that they have completely redesigned their pumps for safety surely suggests their initial design was floored no?

 

[Cbuk2k2]

Regardless of manufacturing problems lashing an earth in won’t make it safe. My advice is skip it.

If you’re that concerned commission an engineering report then contact trading standards with their findings.

As an engineer that’s reported a few products to trading standards they’ve never shown any interest in any of the dangerous products I’ve reported.

 

[Midwest]

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I have just checked the label and it does in fact have the Class II label. However my question above still stands, how can this be two pieces of insulated material between the end user and the live live parts should it fail? Or doesn't it matter if it fails and goes live? The fact that the water has gone live AND that they have completely redesigned their pumps for safety surely suggests their initial design was floored no?
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If it has a Class label II, that would explain the supply lead. As regards the breakdown, that might be just the life span of the apparatus. I can't see any legs on trying to get any redress on this failure, it being a second hand product.

I would just scrap it, and buy a new one from a reputable source. However, I see the main UK retailer is out of stock on all models. Must be popular?

 

[Steviecuk]

Yes everyone is
I have just checked the label and it does in fact have the Class II label. However my question above still stands, how can this be two pieces of insulated material between the end user and the live live parts should it fail? Or doesn't it matter if it fails and goes live? The fact that the water has gone live AND that they have completely redesigned their pumps for safety surely suggests their initial design was floored no?
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If it has a Class label II, that would explain the supply lead. As regards the breakdown, that might be just the life span of the apparatus. I can't see any legs on trying to get any redress on this failure, it being a second hand product.

I would just scrap it, and buy a new one from a reputable source. However, I see the main UK retailer is out of stock on all models. Must be popular?
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yeah everyone is buying one because of the lockdown. Thankfully they’ll be the protected versions.

I get what you say about the life of the product, but surely one can’t be expected and certainly just accept that they will be electrocuted just because the product comes to the end of its lifespan. My last car didn’t just explode with me in it because it was 15 years old.

I kinda expected different comments to be honest. Maybe I’m just naive but not being a spark, I think it's unbelievable that a product can be sold that can so easily end up killing someone from a simple short.

 

[marcuswareham]

Yes everyone is

I have just checked the label and it does in fact have the Class II label. However my question above still stands, how can this be two pieces of insulated material between the end user and the live live parts should it fail? Or doesn't it matter if it fails and goes live? The fact that the water has gone live AND that they have completely redesigned their pumps for safety surely suggests their initial design was floored no?

If it has a Class label II, that would explain the supply lead. As regards the breakdown, that might be just the life span of the apparatus. I can't see any legs on trying to get any redress on this failure, it being a second hand product.

I would just scrap it, and buy a new one from a reputable source. However, I see the main UK retailer is out of stock on all models. Must be popular?
[/QUOTE]
yeah everyone is buying one because of the lockdown. Thankfully they’ll be the protected versions.

I get what you say about the life of the product, but surely one can’t be expected and certainly just accept that they will be electrocuted just because the product comes to the end of its lifespan. My last car didn’t just explode with me in it because it was 15 years old.

I kinda expected different comments to be honest. Maybe I’m just naive but not being a spark, I think it's unbelievable that a product can be sold that can so easily end up killing someone from a simple short.
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I like the 15 year old car quote :- D

But yes probably quite a major design flaw, maybe they have now changed the design but i doubt they are going to scream and shout about there old ones being unsafe!

Heating elements in water always increase the risk of a shock and have a tendency to break down as they get old (only last week i replacend my immersion heater), maybe a better way for them to have done it would be too heat different water / a coolant and then using an electrically insulated heat exchanger transfer the heat from the coolant water to the hot tub water, but then maybe this costs more to make, etc etc

 

[freddo]

This thread reminds me of Dolphin showers which had bare heating elements and pressure switches immersed directly in the water they were heating, inside a clear plastic housing. I think it would be quite possible to make a fairly safe class II spa heater/pump.