Down lights install to lighting with no earth

[Dave1982]

Is it non compliant to install 240 V downlights to a lighting circuit with no earth when no earth connection is required at the downlight. A client is having his ceiling lowered and wants spots fitting which would be fire rated. Any advice appreciated. thanks

 

[brizospark]

the regs state that a cpc should be provided at every accessory even if the accessory does not require a cpc

So you would be best to put the cpc in a wago / connector if your 230v downlights are double insulated

 

[telectrix]

the regs state that a cpc should be provided at every accessory even if the accessory does not require a cpc

So you would be best to put the cpc in a wago / connector if your 230v downlights are double insulated

he ain't got a cpc in the cct. generally it is permissible to fit class II fittings to a circuit with no cpc, but it's debatable if you can do this as you are modifying the cct. and should add a cpc, even if you use a single core green/yellow.

 

[Darkwood]

the regs state that a cpc should be provided at every accessory even if the accessory does not require a cpc

So you would be best to put the cpc in a wago / connector if your 230v downlights are double insulated

Think you misread his post, he has no earth in the lighting circuit and wonders if its ok install double insulated downlighters which dont require an earth anyway.

 

[Darkwood]

Think you misread his post, he has no earth in the lighting circuit and wonders if its ok install double insulated downlighters which dont require an earth anyway.

Bugger Telectrix beat me :svengo:

 

[brizospark]

apologies for misreading. As you are modifying the circuit you would be required to ensure that the existing luminaires in the circuit have a cpc if they require so

 

[telectrix]

but if the luminaires are class II, does he need to install a cpc? i'm on the fence on this one.

 

[brizospark]

telectrix i reckon morally he does. Even if the luminaires are class II he is modifying a circuit which does not have a cpc. Unless all fittings in circuit are class II (which is highly unlikely). If someone gets the 230 tango off of a fitting which aint earthed and they find out that this spark worked on the circuit last week questions will be asked. Also, if the circuit in question contains bathroom lighting you will have to ensure there is RCD protection for the circuit.

 

[telectrix]

i would be inclined to agree with that. some silly sod might come along and fit metal fittings/switches. a bugger if the customer won't pay though , and you have to walk away.

 

[brizospark]

very true sometimes you have to weigh up do i do the job or walk away but always better to cover your archie and run a green and yellow ane

 

[Octopus]

If I remember correctly there is no ruling that says an older "lighting circuit" must be changed to include a CPC. In which case your only option is to recommend and fit class 2 fittings, and add one of those nice labels stating "no CPC in lighting circuit" to the CU.

I'm guessing that this isn't in a bathroom.

Tin hat on!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Would it not be prudent though to provide a means of earthing (for future change of luminaire)..?.............

 

[Octopus]

Would it not be prudent though to provide a means of earthing (for future change of luminaire)..?.............

Yes, if practical, if it doesn't mean ripping the house apart and the homeowner is willing to pay!

 

[Dave1982]

Thanks everyone for the advice. Think I will advise a higher price for a safe install...and to be honest I would have installed an earth if in doubt. Which was the case. thank again.

 

[Darkwood]

The way i see it is on the same theme as murdoch, if you are making alteration or additions to the circuit then your required to ensure the circuit is safe, this does not imply that you have to run an earth or rewire it, if you can confirm all fitting and switches are double insulated and dont require earthing then you can do the additions to the circuit. With exception of as mentioned before the bathroom as it has its own 'special' location reg's.
As part of the job the appropriate warning lables need to be fitted by or on the consumer unit addressing the lack of earth in the lighting. This way you havent left the lighting unsafe, the next engineer will have warning and the owner will have been told of the situe, having been such a nice sparkie when they muster some spare cash you may get the job yourself.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The circuit will also have to have RCD protection, and the departure will have to be recorded on the Certificate.

 

[lofty84]

whats cct

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The circuit will also have to have RCD protection, and the departure will have to be recorded on the Certificate.

But if the circuit has no cpc...and thus no earth path....what use is an RCD on it?

 

[telectrix]

circuit

 

[telectrix]

But if the circuit has no cpc...and thus no earth path....what use is an RCD on it?

the RCD wills ee an earth path if you get hold of a line conductor or there is another earth path.

 

[Darkwood]

whats cct

Think cct was shorthand for Circuit a bit confusing ...more txt speak than abbreviation.

 

[Darkwood]

the RCD wills ee an earth path if you get hold of a line conductor or there is another earth path.

Hmmmph need a faster server lol beaten to the post again :svengo:

 

[brizospark]

The way i see it is on the same theme as murdoch, if you are making alteration or additions to the circuit then your required to ensure the circuit is safe, this does not imply that you have to run an earth or rewire it, if you can confirm all fitting and switches are double insulated and dont require earthing then you can do the additions to the circuit. With exception of as mentioned before the bathroom as it has its own 'special' location reg's.
As part of the job the appropriate warning lables need to be fitted by or on the consumer unit addressing the lack of earth in the lighting. This way you havent left the lighting unsafe, the next engineer will have warning and the owner will have been told of the situe, having been such a nice sparkie when they muster some spare cash you may get the job yourself.

and then the next engineer, then the next then the next, where does it end?

 

[Paul.M]

Bizro, your obligation on your new install on this circuit is this:- Your cable needs to have a cpc. Any of your accessories if class 1 (conducive face plates or parts) needs a path to earth (met) on your addition to the circuit.

The existing circuit is none of your concern but you should mention to the customer the lack of cpc/earth to the circuit.

 

[Darkwood]

and then the next engineer, then the next then the next, where does it end?

You cant do work that say a customer cant clearly afford, whether you refuse to do it or do it isnt going to alter the financial state of the owner, you are not leaving the installation in a dangerous state if you at minimum make sure its all class 2 rated fixtures and fittings and do the basic circuit tests that you can, ive had it on good authority from electrical clark of works that if you work on a circuit you do not need to bring it to regulation if the circuit was deemed in good working order and funtional and safe, if for instance you found a shiny brass switch in the living room on this circuit then yes you must rectify this as it is a area of concern if they cant afford even these simple things then the best suggestion would be to walk or suggest rather than spend money on fitting the new lights that they firstly do the basics to have a safer lighting circuit. Plastic drops and switch should be too expensive anyway.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

the RCD wills ee an earth path if you get hold of a line conductor or there is another earth path.

Yep tel....sorry guys...me bein dizzy in`t head again...lol......:lipsrsealed2:

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Right i`m off. Tired as up at 5;45 this morn.
See you all tommorow.
Glenn.

 

[telectrix]

Think cct was shorthand for Circuit a bit confusing ...more txt speak than abbreviation.

i've always used cct. as an abbreviation for circuit, years before texting was even thought of. we all use PIR for periodic inspection report and passive infra red. now that can be confusing.

and another one. csa ( cross sectional area or child support agency).

a good one i heard of is our fantastic local constabulary came up with the idea of a Fast Action Response Team. till someone pointed out the acronym.

 

[Darkwood]

[TABLE="class: main_content_2011"]
[TR]
[TD="class: bgTdsWhite leftSeparatorCol"][/TD]
[TD="class: bgTdsWhite, width: 550"]
[TABLE="class: contentPortletTable"]
[TR]
[TD="class: title"]This should clear it all up, il even bow down and correct myself, any of your alterations require an earth although the existing can remain without you need to be sure you satify the guidelines below.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: main"][TABLE="class: contentPortletTable"]
[TR]
[TD="class: main"]

Lighting circuits in older installations may not include circuit protective conductors.

[TABLE="align: right"]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Lighting circuits installed before 1966 often did not include a circuit protective conductor (cpc).
If Class I equipment, such as a metal luminair (lighting fitting) switchplate or the like is subsequently installed, the addition of a circuit protective conductor is essential
Without a cpc, there will be a risk of electric shock under fault conditions
Solution

There is no legal requirement, and no regulation in BS 7671, requiring and existing lighting circuit to be rewired or otherwise upgraded to current standards.
Furthermore, it is permissible to extend or alter and existing lighting circuit having no cpc. However, the new work must be carried out in accordance with the current edition of BS 7671, and the safety of the existing installation must not be impaired.
The following are some of the main requirements of BS 7671 that must be taken into account where an existing lighting circuit without cpc is to be extended or altered.

1. Where a cpc consists of a separate green-yellow covered copper conductor, it must still be incorporated in the same wiring system as the live conductors or in their immediate proximity (Regulation 543.6.1 refers). This would require the cpc to be run along the same cable route(s) as the existing cable. The requirement does not apply where a residual current device is used for protection against electric shock

In practice, rather than making changes to an existing lighting circuit having no cpc, the designer or contractor may persuade the customer that it would be safer and more practicable to rewire the circuit
Regulation 131.8

No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.
Regulation 411.3.1.1 (part of)

A circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lamp holder having no exposed-conductive-parts and suspended from such a point
Regulation 543.1.1 (part of)

... The cross-sectional area shall be not less than 2.5 mm² copper equivalent if protection against mechanical damage is provided, and 4 mm² copper equivalent if mechanical protection is not provided
Regulation 543.3.1

A protective conductor shall be suitably protected against mechanical and chemical deterioration and electrodynamic effects
Regulation 543.6.1

Where over-current protective devices are used for fault protection against electric shock, the protective conductor shall be incorporated in the same wiring system as the live conductors or in their immediate proximity
This article is extracted from Snags and Solutions Part 1 or Part 2 published by NICEIC

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[telectrix]

Furthermore, it is permissible to extend or alter and existing lighting circuit having no cpc. However, the new work must be carried out in accordance with the current edition of BS 7671, and the safety of the existing installation must not be impaired.

this is still not clear. if fitting classII fittings, it does not state that these must have a cpc or not.

 

[sonobit]

I dont see the problem really, stick in a cpc regardless. Because A: anything happens or they want something changing most of the time you will be first one back. B: i know guys on here will follow the regs by the book but regs do change and chances are at some point it will be necessary anyway. C: i hate following up jobs where bad sparks over the years will just leave the odd thing here and there and we end up with all the bad habits of past sparkys to sort out. just do it now tell the customer that you strongly recommend it.

 

[Darkwood]

I dont see the problem really, stick in a cpc regardless. Because A: anything happens or they want something changing most of the time you will be first one back. B: i know guys on here will follow the regs by the book but regs do change and chances are at some point it will be necessary anyway. C: i hate following up jobs where bad sparks over the years will just leave the odd thing here and there and we end up with all the bad habits of past sparkys to sort out. just do it now tell the customer that you strongly recommend it.

I think the idea of getting an earth would mean running it from MET which if the case you might as well run in seperate T&E from dist' board he originally asked his question because i assume this isnt an viable option or affordable but yes agree, i had same situe recently and ran new lighting circuit to kitchen and disregarded the existing with no earth just making the customer aware of the safety issues.