Electrician walked off the job half way, what now?

[trev]

Cheers P&S, proof again, if any were ever needed, that every day's a schoolday

 

[belmontbuild]

I'm not taking sides here but before you engagaed the original electricians how many did you get to quote and were their prices similar?

Actually I got 3 quotes his was the most expensive by quite a long way however I am not one to try and do things on the cheap and thought he knew what he was doing.

It turned out to be a massive mistake. We are plaster boarding the walls now and having to put on a 20mm thick later of dot and dab because he did not chop in the 35mm back boxes. which is taking around 20kg of bonding compound per board.

Hi trev, its actually the opposite, VAT man insists services delivered by builders / plumbers / sparkies etc are zero rated for labour and parts. VAT man will re-imburse owner for stuff he has had to buy from say B&Q etc but only after the building is complete. I did a new build for myself a few years back and remember having the conversation with the guy doing the groundworks, he was as surprised as me.
The bit that is a bit risky is that the onus is on the contractor to verify that the VAT being charged is correct. Pretty easy to figure out what a new build is but there are some items an electrician could install in a house which the VAT man will not allow zero rating.
My advice - read the info from HMRC and a quick call to them if you are not sure.
HM Revenue & Customs: Building trades: VAT when constructing new houses and flats

This is right, for a new build a VAT registered trades man has to zero rate the VAT, I can only claim back VAT on stuff that I bought my self from a retail / online outlet. I can not claim back vat for work done as it was supposed to be 0 rated.

I will post a photo of the finished consumer unit as my new electrician seems to have done a really good job.

 

[markythesparky]

I had a good look around the site today and he has only put in around 50 to 55 boxes, no consumer unite, the cables are all free and have not been tacked to the walls, the 30 amp supplies have not been put in so really all that has been done is 6 ring mains run around the flat, a few boxes put into the walls and cables run to them nothing more.

It seems that I have been had.



If the ECA are anything like the NICEIC then you will be able to approach them and make a complaint. they will come round and inspect the work. if its substandard then they will pressure the sparks to come and put it right. if he refuses then they will eploy another registered firm and charge the original sparks for the remedial work.

be warned though, if you have had another sparks on site already then they will not look at it at all.

 

[belmontbuild]

I had a good look around the site today and he has only put in around 50 to 55 boxes, no consumer unite, the cables are all free and have not been tacked to the walls, the 30 amp supplies have not been put in so really all that has been done is 6 ring mains run around the flat, a few boxes put into the walls and cables run to them nothing more.

It seems that I have been had.



If the ECA are anything like the NICEIC then you will be able to approach them and make a complaint. they will come round and inspect the work. if its substandard then they will pressure the sparks to come and put it right. if he refuses then they will eploy another registered firm and charge the original sparks for the remedial work.

be warned though, if you have had another sparks on site already then they will not look at it at all.

I have spoken to his body they are not interested because its a contractual issue not quality issue.

 

[belmontbuild]

Electrician walked off the job half way, An UPDATE!!

Ok a Little bit of back story.

I am doing quit a large new self build and needed a lot of electrical work doing. I got quotes from 3 companies, I went with:

C S***** ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS LTD based in Braintree Essex. He is a member of the ECA.

They where one of the most expensive quotes however I liked the guy and felt he would do a good job. Quality is more important to me then cost.

The initial quote was for:
first fix £7375 and second Fix £5000.
I would supply everything except cables and back boxes.

Originally First fix involved the
following:
7 ring mains for 48 plug sockets
34 lighting circuits with 186 fittings
power to 4 showers
first fix fire alarm system with 13 detectors
6 extractor fans
30 amp supply to induction hob
30 amp supply to flat roof with waterproof
box. 2 outdoor power supplies
2 outdoor lights
fit intercom.

I agreed to pay £3 093 upfront as a deposit. I did this because he was based in Braintree, Essex and I am based near Sheffield. First fix would have taken about 3 to 4 weeks he would have to stay in a hotel during the week.

After he got to site we found I wanted to add a lot of extra sockets and light fittings, we had 95 sockets and 210 light fittings. I agreed I would pay £25 extra per plug socket and £20 per light fitting


The Electrician started on Monday (01.10.12) and went home Thursday afternoon. He had another young lad with him, I have no idea what qualifications the boy had but he told me that he was a fully qualified electrician.

In this time the following work was done
Install 6 ring mains with 53 back boxes (35mm)



On Sunday I got the following email form him:

Hi P****,

Just a quick email to advise you that I will not be coming back up to chesterfield as I was not happy in the way that you handed out the first payment or operated.

I run a professional business and do not run a cash business and that we were paid by a second party.

The work that has been carried out so far, are the six ring mains all wired and boxed to which you have paid me £3093.75 of the first fix cost of £7375.00 to which I have also fitted 44 additional points.

I'm not after any further payments as the works can be carried out by a second party.

Regards C**** S*****.

What happened was that on Monday I was supposed to pay him the deposit so I took cash in but he wanted in his bank account.

So I said I would go to the bank to drop the cash into his account. I was quite busy with other builders on site and did not get the chance to go to the bank so on Tuesday again I was on site so I gave him the 3k deposit in cash and told him to hold onto the money until he can see the deposit in his account, I then got my business partner to do a BACS transfer into his account which showed up a few hours later so he gave me back the 3k I gave to him as security. Its not that I was not willing to pay only the logistics of getting into the bank to do the deposit but he was very stressed about getting paid.

I then sent him a letter asking for £1,693.00 back as I worked out how much in materials he used and then allowed £150 per day each for labor. To be quite honest this was generous but I was trying to be fair. I was also not happy that the 35mm back boxes were not chopped into the walls (we planed to dot and dab sound block plasterboard onto solid block walls), I also felt that the cables running around should have been tacked back to the walls.

I got this back from him

We write in direct response to your undated email letter, as your registered post copy has not
yet been received, concerning works at the above premises.

Your letter clearly identifies that, at worst, we have a divisible contract and accordingly, we
are quite within our rights to stop work when the first fix has been completed. Your letter
is not an offer, nor does it seek to prejudice your position, as such, the 'Without Prejudice'
carries no weight, we shall be presenting your letter, as evidence to the court.

We have raised our objections to the way you conduct yourself in respect to paying by
using a third party and by claiming that the job is zero-rated. We have undertaken many
zero-rated jobs, this is not the way VAT is managed. If you can assure us that HMRC
have issued a redemption certificate, we shall be very pleased to waive this charge.

We have not completed the works, your behaviour means that we cannot see how we can
do this. Consequently, we render our account in the sum of £2577.50 plus VAT (making
£3093) which we have accepting payment from a third party. We have undertaken a 'dead'
test in order to assure us that whoever undertakes the remaining works, the integrity of
our works cannot be called into question.

We thank-you for the photographs. On a project that is still to have its walls sound proofed
and plaster boarded, at a 35mm depth (as per your instructions), we would not expect the
first-fix electrical works to look any different to what they do. Cables would only be
'tacked' or capped if a contractual specification required. BS 7671 makes no such requirement.

If you persist in taking this matter to the small claims court, we shall be using this letter as
the basis of our defence.

Yours faithfully

As its a new build we are Zero Rated for VAT. No other trades have charged me VAT nor has my kitchen supplier. I have spoken to HMRC a few times and they tell me there no such thing as a VAT exemption number in this situation (which is what he asked for).
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageLibrary_PublicNoticesAndInfoSheets&id=HMCE_CL_000513&propertyType=document#P1284_129676

So I then submitted the papers to small claims court.

He then responded claiming to the court that the fire alarm and lighting was never part of the quote.

Today the judge ruled against him in "Default of defence" and I was awarded the full £1,693.00 and £120 costs.

Sorry for the long post but I did promise a full update and was trying to be a clear and honest a possible.

I don’t know if I will actually get any money out of him but I feel I did the right thing by taking him to court. He is not short of a few quid, he and his wife both had quite nice Rolex's and were staying in a VERY nice hotel when I first met them. We actually met in Prague by chance when I stopped to give him directions and we got talking.

This is the original thread
http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...trician-walked-off-job-half-way-what-now.html

I have not posted his name because I do not want to end up in court defamation of character.

The electrical work as now been taken on by a forum member who has done a amazing job. He can is welcome to comment if he wants.

 

[belmontbuild]

Guys for those of you subscribed to this thread I have posted an update
http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...ectrician-walked-off-job-half-way-update.html

The thread can be locked if a mod wants to.

 

[Adam W]

Re: Electrician walked off the job half way, An UPDATE!!

I can't comment on the original situation but thank you for posting the outcome, and I'm glad you got a satisfactory resolution.

 

[Knobhead]

Re: Electrician walked off the job half way, An UPDATE!!

I hope this is the last chapter in the saga.

From you’re tale of woe I get the impression things weren’t right at the outset. Change the terms of an agreed contract, expect trouble.

 

[Knobhead]

The update is as dire as this litany of complaints!

 

[Marvo]

Guys for those of you subscribed to this thread I have posted an update...

Thanks for the update, I've merged the separate thread you made with this one just to keep things tidy.

How did the rest of the project go with the new electrician? I imagine the job must be finished now or at least approaching handover.

 

[belmontbuild]

The new guy was very good, its till not quite finished but its getting there. It should be done in around 2 months from now.

 

[Octopus]

So you meet a sparky in Prague, who lives in Essex, you live in Sheffield and the job is in Chesterfield? Sounds like a receipe for disaster from the start.

 

[ian.settle1]

So you meet a sparky in Prague, who lives in Essex, you live in Sheffield and the job is in Chesterfield? Sounds like a receipe for disaster from the start.

Have will, will travel comes to mind.

How big is this house having 37 lighting circuits, is each light got it's own circuit?

 

[MDJ]

Re: Electrician walked off the job half way, An UPDATE!!

Change the terms of an agreed contract, expect trouble.

LOL, totally agree haha, that's whats happened here IMO

 

[belmontbuild]

Re: Electrician walked off the job half way, An UPDATE!!

So you meet a sparky in Prague, who lives in Essex, you live in Sheffield and the job is in Chesterfield? Sounds like a receipe for disaster from the start.

Strange I know, I have been living in Prague for 10 years but was in the process of moving back to the uk (in 6 months). I got talking to this guy in Prague and he gave me his card, as he seemed to be a nice guy I called him when I was looking for a electrician.

We live in sheffield while we are building the place in Chesterfield its only 45min away.

Have will, will travel comes to mind.

How big is this house having 37 lighting circuits, is each light got it's own circuit?

6400 sq ft so quite large.

LOL, totally agree haha, that's whats happened here IMO

I dont know, we agreed from the start that there will be chances as we go along and I would be charged per point. At the end of the day when your doing a self build you always want to add and change things as the build progresses.

15k for a few weeks worth of work and probably £1k worth of cables is not bad if you ask me.

 

[DPG]

7 ring mains and 34 lighting circuits?? 34 lighting circuits? 34?. Maybe it's just me but why is there a need for 34 lighting circuits? Daz 34??!? I mean, 34??!?

 

[Outspoken]

Funny enough I was born in Braintree, Bailey Bridge Road to be exact, and went to the John Bunyan School before the family moved to London to enable my father to be nearer the business he was partners in. I know a sparky in the town whose initials match those in this thread...IF it is the same spark I would very very surprised if the work was below an acceptable standard because having worked with him in the past his work was always very well done, in fact I recall moaning about how long he took to do a particular job because he was taking his time to ensure it was "just right" due to be surface.

Now I am not about to contact him and ask the question, but I will bet there is more to this story than the posts here imply, although I am not taking sides or saying anyone is right or wrong here. Perhaps both parties could have sat down and spoken and resolved matters more maturely, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[belmontbuild]

I agree, it would have been nice if I did not have to go to court to resolve this, I did even drop him a line and say that if he has changed his mind he can come back and finish the job before I get someone else in. As I said he came across as a very nice bloke and I am not out to screw anyone at all and I dont think this guy is a scammer.

I got taken advantage of because I was a little naive and paid a deposit up front which I will never do again.

 

[markc123]

6400sq ft warrants a quite large ?

I wonder what your large is lol...

 

[belmontbuild]

6400sq ft warrants a quite large ?

I wonder what your large is lol...

LOL, yes its not a small place but after project managing the build myself it feels quite small now as I am in there all day every day.

 

[Rockingit]

I got taken advantage of because I was a little naive and paid a deposit up front which I will never do again.

Many of us don't do work WITHOUT some form of up front deposit because of being caught out by bad paying customers!! It's a chicken and egg situation.

 

[Octopus]

Many of us don't do work WITHOUT some form of up front deposit because of being caught out by bad paying customers!! It's a chicken and egg situation.

And many of us don't work with builders/developers because its too much hassle.

 

[dan86]

Glad it's all sorted. that's the main thing I guess

 

[Silly Sausage]

Oi Dan!

Your pikelets could do with some butter and Marmite.

 

[belmontbuild]

Many of us don't do work WITHOUT some form of up front deposit because of being caught out by bad paying customers!! It's a chicken and egg situation.

Yes its difficult what I do now is I pay everyone on friday at the end of the week. I have had some of the same trades working on there for the last 14 weeks so there is a level of trust between me and most of the people working there.

 

[Knobhead]

What do you want out of this thread? Sympathy? Not from me or many others I would guess.

You pulled a stunt with the first transaction, do the same to me and I’d walk away. During the hearing weren’t questions asked about the payment methods? Very surprised if there weren’t!

It would be interesting if the first electrician were to come on to here, there’s two sides to every story. This one has become long and boring!

 

[Essexboy7]

Just a quick email to advise you that I will not be coming back up to XXXX as I was not happy in the way that you handed out the first payment or operated.
I run a professional business and do not run a cash business and that we were paid by a second party.

I have never heard such crap.We are in the middle of a reccession.I would be happy to take any money ,in any form,from anyone

 

[nottz_spark]

i have read this thread with interest as i am looking for clues to be a succesful contractor...what i can really decipher is ....there is obviously 2 sides to every story and this is not a personal attack on the poster but it is clear he has flexible ways of working which the original spark wasnt happy with...who the hell calls a place with that many circuits 'small'?...i will pay you on monday which turns out to be 'someone else will pay you on tuesday'.....i think the original spark saw what was coming and just made sure he got out of there without taking a loss and i am struggling to fault him.

 

[Outspoken]

Personally I have reservation about the whole story, anyone with enough money to build a house of that size, in my honest opinion, is unlikely to bitch and moan about it on here to be honest, perhaps I am wrong, there is always a first time for such behaviour I suppose (The poster not me being wrong, that is regular!)

I would like to see a scanned copy of the Judgement on here (with ID's and addresses protected of course) just to be some form of proof this is not some elaborate bull. I have taken companies and individuals to court several times over the years for none payment, breach of contract etc, and there will be a written judgement...

 

[Guest55]

i call bulls*** on the job even existing
no-one in chesterfield has the coin to build a 6000 sqft luxury designer apartment , the place is a dump lol.
and if they could afford it , they wouldnt build it there in the first place , they'd choose somewhere nicer.......
like the bronx , moss-side or toxteth.
;-)

 

[Octopus]

Wonder who the lucky Spark on here is now the contractor?

 

[Guest55]

lofty ??

lolz

 

[supertoad]

yes I agree this sounds odd

 

[belmontbuild]

What do you want out of this thread? Sympathy? Not from me or many others I would guess.

You pulled a stunt with the first transaction, do the same to me and I’d walk away. During the hearing weren’t questions asked about the payment methods? Very surprised if there weren’t!

It would be interesting if the first electrician were to come on to here, there’s two sides to every story. This one has become long and boring!

I dont want anything from this thread, I only posted an update because I said I would when I first created the thread.

i have read this thread with interest as i am looking for clues to be a succesful contractor...what i can really decipher is ....there is obviously 2 sides to every story and this is not a personal attack on the poster but it is clear he has flexible ways of working which the original spark wasnt happy with...who the hell calls a place with that many circuits 'small'?...i will pay you on monday which turns out to be 'someone else will pay you on tuesday'.....i think the original spark saw what was coming and just made sure he got out of there without taking a loss and i am struggling to fault him.

well, its not quite how it played out. I turned up with the cash on monday morning because I did not want to send a bank transfer in advance. He did not want cash so I said I will go and drop it into the bank but I did not manage to find time.

Tuesday came and I took the cash in with the intention of going to the bank during the day, he was so stressed about getting paid and not waiting a couple of hours for me to get out to go to the bank I said I would get my partner to do the transfer while he holds onto the cash.

i call bulls*** on the job even existing
no-one in chesterfield has the coin to build a 6000 sqft luxury designer apartment , the place is a dump lol.
and if they could afford it , they wouldnt build it there in the first place , they'd choose somewhere nicer.......
like the bronx , moss-side or toxteth.
;-)

couple of photos attached, living room on the left and Kitchen on the right.

Chesterfield is not that bad, we are in a small village near chesterfield but yes given a choice I would be living back in London or Prague but work and family have brought us back to the UK.

Wonder who the lucky Spark on here is now the contractor?

He can post if he wants. I know he is following this thread. He seems to have done a very good job so far. I have to huge consumer units filled with RCBO's

 

[GLENNSPARK]

chesterfield is a shed...
even the church steeple is pised up...

 

[Outspoken]

I would be living back in London or Prague but work and family have brought us back to the UK.

Now I know London is very international, but when I was there a couple of days back it was till in the UK...has some bugger moved it in the meantime?

He can post if he wants. I know he is following this thread.

I'm sure everyone would love to hear from him even if just as confirmation the Job is real, as that stops all the speculation dead in it's tracks.

He seems to have done a very good job so far. I have to huge consumer units filled with RCBO's

I'll bet that is a pretty penny.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Just spotted the update, yes its me who is doing the rest. Some quite amusing comments .....
Chezvegas as it is called is my birth town, have travelled a fair bit over the years and its quite nice, we have the Peak District and surrounding villages which "southerners" fall over themselves to buy

As for the job, its one of those jobs which was / is always going to change.

I am the 3rd sparkie and the work done by the first was "OK" (probably less than a grands worth - i needed to neaten up a few runs and the zoning was a bit random, as for dead tests, no chance, no cable had been stripped. Have agreed with owner not to put the floors down until we have tested.

 

[JD6400]

Hi plugs , you say the 3rd sparkie !?
Don't feel you have to answer , if it will put you in a awkward position !:dots:

 

[plugsandsparks]

No biggy, 2nd did a bit to keep the job moving and as i understand it he was not available when needed.
This is the type of job where the sparkie can only do a bit at a time, with gaps over months. It suits me as i am very local and so far can keep ahead.

 

[Octopus]

Just spotted the update, yes its me who is doing the rest. Some quite amusing comments .....
Chezvegas as it is called is my birth town, have travelled a fair bit over the years and its quite nice, we have the Peak District and surrounding villages which "southerners" fall over themselves to buy

As for the job, its one of those jobs which was / is always going to change.

I am the 3rd sparkie and the work done by the first was "OK" (probably less than a grands worth - i needed to neaten up a few runs and the zoning was a bit random, as for dead tests, no chance, no cable had been stripped. Have agreed with owner not to put the floors down until we have tested.

A sensible decision by the OP to get someone local!