Hard wired smokes with CU change?

[NellyManjaro]

Hopefully an easy one without much debate but I've just had spoke to someone who has had an electrician go to his rental property and say it needs a new CU which I'd agree, all sockets to be replaced as they don't have switches which I would personally but didn't think this was actually a requirement? But also a new circuit putting in for hard wired smoke alarms... now although I would recommend hard wired smoke alarms they aren't required following a CU upgrade are they? Re wires yes... new installations yes... id probably even push it if I was adding 1 or 2 circuits in but they have the required battery smoke alarms that the legislation for rental properties dictates that they must now have in place.

Anyone know these rules for sure? I was very confident in my response yesterday but the more I think about it the more I am doubting what I said and don't want to give him a bum steer

Thanks

 

[James]

In England,
sockets do not need to be switched
hard wired smokes in your case would be recommended but not mandatory

scotland has different rules about fire detection though.

 

[littlespark]

Check with the local authority to see if they allow battery. If they do, they will still need interlinked.

How difficult is it to wire?

 

[UNG]

all sockets to be replaced as they don't have switches

This seems to be a common error recently, I've seen it a couple of times on EICR's and lack of isolation is always quoted in the observations

 

[James]

Daft, isolation isn’t achieved until the plug is removed from the socket anyway!

 

[littlespark]

Easiest form of isolation is unplugging. Not handy if the socket is down behind a washing machine. Hence the need/want off an solar ion switch above worktop.

The age of unswitched sockets would be factor in whether they need changed or not, although I know you can buy unswitched sockets new.

 

[UNG]

Daft, isolation isn’t achieved until the plug is removed from the socket anyway!

I put it down to inexperienced people lacking the skills to carry out a proper EICR

 

[littlespark]

I’m sorry, but how did my ISOLATION become SOLAR ION???

 

[James]

It wasn‘t your autocorrect, I expect it was one of the mods just playing with you!!!

 

[catdog1121]

Easiest form of isolation is unplugging. Not handy if the socket is down behind a washing machine. Hence the need/want off an solar ion switch above worktop.

The age of unswitched sockets would be factor in whether they need changed or not, although I know you can buy unswitched sockets new.

You can use the circuit breaker as an isolation switch so unless the consumer unit is not relatively easily accessible then even isolation switches above the worktop are not specifically required although it can be better to have them. (Personally I prefer the grid switches rather than loads of fcu's, alternatively put the socket behind the adjacent unit and drill a hole in the side of the unit so the power cable can be pulled through and plugged in..

 

[littlespark]

You can use the circuit breaker as an isolation switch so unless the consumer unit is not relatively easily accessible then even isolation switches above the worktop are not specifically required although it can be better to have them. (Personally I prefer the grid switches rather than loads of fcu's, alternatively put the socket behind the adjacent unit and drill a hole in the side of the unit so the power cable can be pulled through and plugged in..

It is required under Scottish building regs… that’s why I put “need/want” because sometimes easy isolation is required, sometimes not.

The trouble with unswitched sockets is people pulling the plug out on load. Which can happen if they leave the switch on anyway.

 

[Grant1987]

It is required under Scottish building regs… that’s why I put “need/want” because sometimes easy isolation is required, sometimes not.

The trouble with unswitched sockets is people pulling the plug out on load. Which can happen if they leave the switch on anyway.

Totally agree, I have lost count at the amount of times I’ve been asked to check (dodgy) sockets due to the user plugging in equipment/appliances under load conditions and then sparking (arcing in our terms) I understand that by not having a switched socket doesn’t make a difference Aslong as the equipment is not on but by having a switched socket you can clearly see the socket in off position and no arcing whilst plugging in

 

[UNG]

Totally agree, I have lost count at the amount of times I’ve been asked to check (dodgy) sockets due to the user plugging in equipment/appliances under load conditions and then sparking (arcing in our terms) I understand that by not having a switched socket doesn’t make a difference Aslong as the equipment is not on but by having a switched socket you can clearly see the socket in off position and no arcing whilst plugging in

But that doesn't make it a hard and fast requirement on an EICR

 

[Grant1987]

But that doesn't make it a hard and fast requirement on an EICR

No it does not, however I do believe that

But that doesn't make it a hard and fast requirement on an EICR

a switched socket is the best option unless a switched fused spur is operating the unswitched socket

 

[westward10]

Totally agree, I have lost count at the amount of times I’ve been asked to check (dodgy) sockets due to the user plugging in equipment/appliances under load conditions and then sparking (arcing in our terms) I understand that by not having a switched socket doesn’t make a difference Aslong as the equipment is not on but by having a switched socket you can clearly see the socket in off position and no arcing whilst plugging in

I have been in the trade for nigh on 40 years and can never recall suggesting plugging items under load into or from a socket has resulted in the socket becoming faulty, how have you verified this.

 

[UNG]

No it does not, however I do believe that
a switched socket is the best option unless a switched fused spur is operating the unswitched socket

Or a 20A DP switch

Given that unswitched sockets are normally more expensive than switched sockets economics would suggest that fitting switched sockets is the best option

 

[Grant1987]

I have been in the trade for nigh on 40 years and can never recall suggesting plugging items under load into or from a socket has resulted in the socket becoming faulty, how have you verified this.

You’ve missed my point here. The socket was never faulty to start with just the fact that the user plugged the 3 pin plug under load conditions and blamed the socket for being faulty when they saw a spark and s**t themselves. Verified what exactly?

 

[Grant1987]

You’ve missed my point here. The socket was never faulty to start with just the fact that the user plugged the 3 pin plug under load conditions and blamed the socket for being faulty when they saw a spark and s**t themselves. Verified what exactly?

Regardless of your 40 years my 17 years tells me enough to never plug In appliances/ electrical equipment whilst the supply is ON position

 

[Grant1987]

Or a 20A DP switch

Given that unswitched sockets are normally more expensive than switched sockets economics would suggest that fitting switched sockets is the best option

How much of a price difference are they?

 

[westward10]

You’ve missed my point here. The socket was never faulty to start with just the fact that the user plugged the 3 pin plug under load conditions and blamed the socket for being faulty when they saw a spark and s**t themselves. Verified what exactly?

Verified that the user made it faulty by removing and inserting plugs under loads in #12. I have lost count the amount of times I've been asked to check (dodgy) sockets due to the user plugging in equipment/appliances under load conditions.................

 

[westward10]

Regardless of your 40 years my 17 years tells me enough to never plug In appliances/ electrical equipment whilst the supply is ON position

Why not, explain.

 

[Grant1987]

Why not, explain.

I’ve explained in previous posts. Read

 

[Grant1987]

Verified that the user made it faulty by removing and inserting plugs under loads in #12. I have lost count the amount of times I've been asked to check (dodgy) sockets due to the user plugging in equipment/appliances under load conditions.................

So what’s your point? Do you advise plugging in electrical equipment whilst they are in “ON” position?

 

[Grant1987]

Verified that the user made it faulty by removing and inserting plugs under loads in #12. I have lost count the amount of times I've been asked to check (dodgy) sockets due to the user plugging in equipment/appliances under load conditions.................

The socket was never faulty but the user claimed it to be faulty by it sparking whilst plugging in the hoover/steamer etc this is my point

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Unswitched sockets are, apparently, fine for on-load disconnection, according to table 537.4, note 3.

 

[Grant1987]

Unswitched sockets are, apparently, fine for on-load disconnection, according to table 537.4, note 3.

My bible is in the van however the wording there says “on load disconnection” what about “connection”?

 

[Pretty Mouth]

My bible is in the van however the wording there says “on load disconnection” what about “connection”?

It says suitable for isolation, also says suitable for functional switching, so I guess so

 

[Grant1987]

It says suitable for isolation, also says suitable for functional switching, so I guess so

Doesn’t sound clear to me.

 

[Grant1987]

Doesn’t sound clear to me.

Let’s see what westward says tomorrow. I believe I’m right in this debate do not plug in equipment whilst under load conditions and socket in on position.

 

[Grant1987]

Anyway goodnight. Speak tomorrow mate