I want a 16 amp socket in the garage with 3 double sockets

[loz2754]

Glad you got it resolved.

 

[Julie.]

Thank you very much. I did get a commando unit that has the switch with protection and it’s going on 16amp mcb. All is solved! All that and it’s only a 1500w motor

You need to check, just having a switch is not enough, it has to be interlocked between the switch and outlet some are and some aren't.

Do you have the type/picture of the one proposed?

 

[Fiskey878]

You need to check, just having a switch is not enough, it has to be interlocked between the switch and outlet some are and some aren't.

Do you have the type/picture of the one proposed?

Hi, I’ve got my hands on it and it’s installed already, you can’t turn it on at all unless there’s a plug in and you can’t pull the plug when it’s turned on. It’s only running at 9.1amps as well so I’m not worried about it any more lol. Thanks again for your help

 

[Rockingit]

There are two reasons why the industrial 16A socket is not permitted in residential, the first is that standard accessories have an integral fuse because of the normal 32A mcb protection on a ring, but fitting the 16A outlet on a single radial circuit on a 16A mcb solves this.

However the most critical reason is that all equipment for residential has protection against small fingers and poking! Usually via shutters, take the standard 13A outlet as an example; this just isn't present with the 16A or 32A industrial equipment outlets, in this case a child or adult could easily come in direct contact with live conductors. (Think of a small piece of swarf or similar)

There is a workaround, because although the standard indicates that bs1363 sockets must be used, you are allowed to substitute other equipment provided it provides no less protection.

A standard 16A outlet does not meet this requirement, but there are 16A outlets and plugs with interlocking, these have an isolator switch.

In this case when a suitable plug is inserted the switch may be switched on, but then the plug cannot be removed, without a plug in, the switch cannot be turned on.

This would provide the required level of protection provided it is supplied by a 16A mcb.

Whilst I agree with you entirely in principle, I don’t believe that it’s actually mandated anywhere in regulations (either electrical or building) that you can only use BS1363 in a dwelling?? Happy to be schooled on this if not so!

 

[Intoelectrics]

Thank you for the information. They say that type C is 'recommended' but they don't say it is a necessity. If my type B breaker doesn't trip does this mean I'm OK to use it with the planer?

You can always try it first. If the planer starts and runs fine on a standard 13amp plug top then you are not losing protection. Be sure to make sure the RCD protection for this circuit is working properly. Very easy to catch and damage a flexi lead with a power tool like this.

Though if you are running the lighting & other items from the other sockets simultaneously then you should seriously consider the advice given so far and see about improving and altering the existing supply to accommodate you new requirements.

 

[Julie.]

Whilst I agree with you entirely in principle, I don’t believe that it’s actually mandated anywhere in regulations (either electrical or building) that you can only use BS1363 in a dwelling?? Happy to be schooled on this if not so!

553.1.201

Every outlet for household shall be shuttered and preferably bs1363

(Paraphrasing as I haven't got my book to hand)

It's the lack of shutters on a 16A outlet that is prohibited.

 

[As1999]

Thanks for your reply. The CU in the house is RCD protected so I guess I don't need an RCD in the garage too. Would I be correct in thinking that I only need to uprate the house CU breaker to the garage if it keeps tripping due to overload? I was thinking to maybe install a 20 Amp type C in the house CU that will feed the garage CU.

I would personally add a rcd in the garage cu even if the house db has one. Saves the hassle of the entire house loosing power.

 

[timhoward]

I would personally add a rcd in the garage cu even if the house db has one. Saves the hassle of the entire house loosing power.

How would you ensure only the garage one trips?

 

[As1999]

How would you ensure only the garage one trips?

Should preface this by saying I’m not fully qualified yet - just waiting for nvq 3 from my employer!

But rcd discrimination would ensure garage trips first if there’s a fault there no? Correct me if I’m wrong !

 

[timhoward]

Should preface this by saying I’m not fully qualified yet - just waiting for nvq 3 from my employer!

But rcd discrimination would ensure garage trips first if there’s a fault there no? Correct me if I’m wrong !

If you could achieve RCD discrimination, then yes. I believe it would be rather hard to do in these circumstances, assuming there's already a 30ma RCD in the house.

 

[Julie.]

Should preface this by saying I’m not fully qualified yet - just waiting for nvq 3 from my employer!

But rcd discrimination would ensure garage trips first if there’s a fault there no? Correct me if I’m wrong !

Nope

Why would any particular rcd go?

In effect you have two devices in series, both operate at 30mA with the same time setting.

If anything, the upstream one is likely to operate first.

 

[littlespark]

RCDs trip at values below 30mA. It’s just a maximum.

The ramp test of an rcd tester gives the actual threshold.
Some are only 19mA…. So whichever “30mA” rcd has the lower threshold, will trip first.

However… if the fault is substantial… it could be both.

 

[davesparks]

I would personally add a rcd in the garage cu even if the house db has one. Saves the hassle of the entire house loosing power.

No it doesn't,

There are two reasons why the industrial 16A socket is not permitted in residential,

The regulations do not allow them for household use, but that's not the same as not being permitted in a domestic installation.

 

[brianmoooore]

553.1.201

Every outlet for household shall be shuttered and preferably bs1363

(Paraphrasing as I haven't got my book to hand)

It's the lack of shutters on a 16A outlet that is prohibited.

16A socket has a shutter - a big blue spring loaded one, albeit a manually operated one.
Depends on the exact wording of the reg.

 

[Rockingit]

16A socket has a shutter - a big blue spring loaded one, albeit a manually operated one.
Depends on the exact wording of the reg.

Having looked this up now.... 553.1.201 says "Every socket-outlet for household and similar use shall be of the shuttered type, and, for an AC installation, shall preferably be of a type complying with BS1363" - so exactly as @Julie. said (thank you....). However what I'm now finding curious is that there doesn't seem to be an exception for those with interlocks either.

That said, 553.1.5 (iii) DOES allow outlets to BS EN60309-2 for special purposes where danger would arise or it is necessary to distinguish the circuit.

 

[Intoelectrics]

Having looked this up now.... 553.1.201 says "Every socket-outlet for household and similar use shall be of the shuttered type, and, for an AC installation, shall preferably be of a type complying with BS1363" - so exactly as @Julie. said (thank you....). However what I'm now finding curious is that there doesn't seem to be an exception for those with interlocks either.

That said, 553.1.5 (iii) DOES allow outlets to BS EN60309-2 for special purposes where danger would arise or it is necessary to distinguish the circuit.

Interestingly the definition of household is as follows : a house and its occupants regarded as a unit
So if the socket outlet is in a workshop at the property separate to and not part of the "household" then does this reg apply? So would this fall under the "special purposes" definition?

 

[Julie.]

Interestingly the definition of household is as follows : a house and its occupants regarded as a unit
So if the socket outlet is in a workshop at the property separate to and not part of the "household" then does this reg apply? So would this fall under the "special purposes" definition?

It does indicate "or similar ", in principle I see it as either falling into household/residential.. or commercial/industrial.. or perhaps public.

Only commercial/industrial are regarded as having trained persons, so it's understandable that these are the only area where not having shutters or proper prevention of access to live conductors would be acceptable.

Anywhere where untrained persons can access I think implies the extent of protection described by this regulation, so sockets in a garden, garden shed/workshop/home office to me ought to be regarded as household.

In our own home workshop (husband's hobby) with lathe, Mill etc I have fitted interlocking outlets.

 

[littlespark]

All this about interlocking 16A sockets…. But caravan owners, who are mostly untrained general public type people are expected to plug into whatever socket is at hand.

There are pre-made hook up leads with no interlocking sockets, and even 13A to 16A adaptors for plugging in at home.

 

[brianmoooore]

All this about interlocking 16A sockets…. But caravan owners, who are mostly untrained general public type people are expected to plug into whatever socket is at hand.

There are pre-made hook up leads with no interlocking sockets, and even 13A to 16A adaptors for plugging in at home.

There was a change with the 18th. 16A site sockets are now required to be switched and interlocked, so any unswitched are now C3 on an EICR.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Should preface this by saying I’m not fully qualified yet - just waiting for nvq 3 from my employer!

But rcd discrimination would ensure garage trips first if there’s a fault there no? Correct me if I’m wrong !

Just going back to this. You cannot discriminate RCDs in the same way as you may be able to do with MCBs (and even this ain't easy).
Yes you could have a number of RCDs in a row with decreasing trip currents. but let's look at a simple example.
A 100mA RCD at source, and a 30mA RCD in the outbuilding.

Yes, it is true that an earth leakage of, say, 60mA would trip the 30mA but shouldn't trip the 100mA, BUT in the real World this doesnt happen. You usually get a big wolloping earth fault when you scythe through a mains cable and both RCDs trip because the instantaneous earth fault is more than several amps!!
The only reliable way to discriminate with RCDs is on the basis of TIME.
So you install a Time-delayed RCD nearer the source (they are called type S). The time-delay varies, and sometimes is adjustable. typically an S-type RCD has a time delay of between 150ms and 500ms. An earth fault of any magnitude will trip the standard RCD (typically within 40mSec). The S-type will stay in play.

This is another reason why it is better not to feed a submain (eg to a garage CU) directly from an RCD-protected MCB. Better to provide the circuit from a non-RCD protected way, or - even better - from a separate switch/fuse, then you dont trip the freezer when a mouse dies in the garage.