Is my Property Electrical Test and Inspection Report Misleading?

[Dave 85]

At the end of the day pal noone can force you to have any work done on your house. As has been said..if theres no metal light fittings and theres a sticker on the C/U its all good. I'd spend the money on crystal meth and eastern european hookers instead.

 

[IQ Electrical]

I completely agree on the competence definition but defects are noted and codes allocated based on the current version of BS7671 only. The assessment of 'satisfactory' or 'unsatisfactory' is then based on those same codes, giving an indication of whether an installation is safe or not safe for continued service.

Knowing whether the installation was installed to the 13th or 14th edition should have no affect whatsoever on the final assessment.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

yes....a typical one being 6mm main bonding on a TN-C-S......a (2)....

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Of course it will have an effect.
The current edition informs us that installations that complied to earlier editions are not unsafe.
As such any non-compliance which would be considered to make the installation unsafe under the current edition, would also have to be considered in relation to the earlier edition that was in force at the time when the installation was designed/constructed.
If you failed to take into consideration the earlier edition, you would not be conducting the inspection in accordance with the current edition.

 

[IQ Electrical]

Of course it will have an effect.
The current edition informs us that installations that complied to earlier editions are not unsafe.
As such any non-compliance which would be considered to make the installation unsafe under the current edition, would also have to be considered in relation to the earlier edition that was in force at the time when the installation was designed/constructed.
If you failed to take into consideration the earlier edition, you would not be conducting the inspection in accordance with the current edition.

So as an inspector, you've completed your report, assumed the installation was installed to 15th edition then someone informs you that it was in fact installed to say the 16th edition, are you then going to alter allocated codes and defects comments? Of course not!

Check pages 4 and 5 of the ESC guide below and indeed Guidance Note 3-both publications categorically state that the installation is to be tested against the requirements of the edition of BS7671 current at the time of the inspection.

Of course there will be non retrospective changes between editions, that's why we have a code system based on assessment of risk.

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/use...y/best_practice/BestPracticeGuide4-Locked.pdf

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So as an inspector, you've completed your report, assumed the installation was installed to 15th edition then someone informs you that it was in fact installed to say the 16th edition, are you then going to alter allocated codes and defects comments? Of course not!

Check pages 4 and 5 of the ESC guide below and indeed Guidance Note 3-both publications categorically state that the installation is to be tested against the requirements of the edition of BS7671 current at the time of the inspection.

Of course there will be non retrospective changes between editions, that's why we have a code system based on assessment of risk.

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/use...y/best_practice/BestPracticeGuide4-Locked.pdf

yep....it either is...or isn`t...

 

[Deleted member 26818]

So as an inspector, you've completed your report, assumed the installation was installed to 15th edition then someone informs you that it was in fact installed to say the 16th edition, are you then going to alter allocated codes and defects comments? Of course not!

Check pages 4 and 5 of the ESC guide below and indeed Guidance Note 3-both publications categorically state that the installation is to be tested against the requirements of the edition of BS7671 current at the time of the inspection.

Of course there will be non retrospective changes between editions, that's why we have a code system based on assessment of risk.

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/use...y/best_practice/BestPracticeGuide4-Locked.pdf

I'm glad you made reference to the ESC BPG.
Could I direct your attention to the first paragraph on page 14?

 

[BlueToBits]

The intro states
" ...The inspection should be carried out ..... ... to determine what needs to be done to maintain the installation in a safe and serviceable condition"
So what defines an installation as "Safe"? Is it the inspector's opinion, or the wiring regulations?
The guide goes on to say that installations constructed to earlier regulations that are non-compliant with current regulations does not necessarily mean they are unsafe. Does this mean they are therefore safe?
Is a 6.0 mm main earth on a 14th edition installation satisfactory?
Therefore is a 13A non RCD-protected socket outlet in an upstairs bedroom on a 16th edition installation satisfactory?
Which set of regulations do we draw the line?

As I see it, the ONLY tangible reference regarding the determination of an installation as "safe" is full compliance to the current regs. It is not up to the inspector to decide which of the regulations can be ignored.
Does it say anywhere that a non-compliance with current regs does not need to be mentioned? If it does, I can't find it and would welcome a quote.

 

[malcolmsanford]

I would take this further then BTB, that socket in the upstairs bedroom as you say is not covered by an RCD for both cable depth or the socket itself is it unsatisfactory because it is covered by a BS 3036 rewirable fuse, well for me as an inspector if it had a Zs value of Uo/Ia and that being 230/210 = 1.09 (As the new book no longer gives values for rewirables in the tables I would calculate it as above) and if the circuit complied for me it is satisfactory.

Now would I put under observations that the circuit would be safer with additional protection with an RCd, well in a home yes I think I would, and so for me it could be coded 3, and would still be satisfactory

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I'm not aware that anyone has said that a non-compliance with the current Regulations should not need to be mentioned.
However yes the guide does point such out on page 10 last paragraph:
"Amendment 1 to BS 7671:2998 no longer requires departures from the requirements of the current editon of BS7671 that do not give rise to danger or need improvement to be recorded in condition reports. (Examples of such departures are given on page 17.)"
Not strictly correct.
The requirement has always been to record 'non-compliances which may give rise to danger', the requirement has remained unchanged (except for a typo) since BS7671 was first introduced.
I'm not happy with the reference to 'departures', as a departure (according to BS7671) is intended, offers the same degree of safety as would be achived by compliance with the Regulations and is recorded as a departure on the EIC. The list on page 17 does not show anything which would be considered as a departure in accordance with BS7671.
I'm also not happy for instance, that the list on page 17 indicates that you should not record undersized (6mm²) bonding conductors.
I'd consider such as a code C3

 

[BlueToBits]

So as written, if it is compliant with an earlier set of regulations and does not give rise to danger it should not be mentioned in the report.
The regs seem to be now placing the onus on the inspector to determine :

1. if something is compliant with the regs that were current at the time of installation
   1. to do so the inspector must be as conversant with all previous standards as with the current standard. I'd consider myself fairly old school but my knowledge of the 13th edition and earlier is non existant.
   2. the inspector must have some way of determining the exact age of the installation to apply the correct regulation version
2. if a suspect deviation, despite it not complying with the current standard but apparently compliant with an earlier standard, does or does not give rise to danger
   1. It is up to his own opinion to decide if the old regulation is still complied with rather than to refer to a quotable regulation number supporting the fact.
   2. Which of the older regulations are now to be deemed unsafe? Aluminium T&E?, wrapped soldered and camera taped joints? fused neutrals? wooden switch boxes? all these were once fully compliant.

What we need is a new set of regulations itemising which of the current regulations we don't need to worry about and which of the old regulations are perfectly OK. 2 volumes perhaps, each with 5 guidance notes, regularly amended every 2-3 years at £85 per book.
Or a very robust Professional Indemnity Insurance policy

 

[Deleted member 26818]

2. fused neutrals.
The rest are still compliant, just that the ESC/NICEIC don't like wooded switch boxes

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So as written, if it is compliant with an earlier set of regulations and does not give rise to danger it should not be mentioned in the report.
The regs seem to be now placing the onus on the inspector to determine :

1. if something is compliant with the regs that were current at the time of installation
   1. to do so the inspector must be as conversant with all previous standards as with the current standard. I'd consider myself fairly old school but my knowledge of the 13th edition and earlier is non existant.
   2. the inspector must have some way of determining the exact age of the installation to apply the correct regulation version
2. if a suspect deviation, despite it not complying with the current standard but apparently compliant with an earlier standard, does or does not give rise to danger
   1. It is up to his own opinion to decide if the old regulation is still complied with rather than to refer to a quotable regulation number supporting the fact.
   2. Which of the older regulations are now to be deemed unsafe? Aluminium T&E?, wrapped soldered and camera taped joints? fused neutrals? wooden switch boxes? all these were once fully compliant.

What we need is a new set of regulations itemising which of the current regulations we don't need to worry about and which of the old regulations are perfectly OK. 2 volumes perhaps, each with 5 guidance notes, regularly amended every 2-3 years at £85 per book.
Or a very robust Professional Indemnity Insurance policy

well...your fused neutrals would fail on a condition report inspection schedule

132.14.1

 

[bigbaddave]

The electrician who fitted the selv fan mentioned he could test the new installation but only up to a point as some testing requires earthing, but if not he would make a note.

The house was built around 1948 and is a 3-bed semi, unfortunately i havent got any way to get the cert online In total I have about 13 light points.



Is there anywhere on the cert (DPN4) that would tell me this has been checked or would it be hand written notes?

Thanks for the posts btw

Circuit board details (R1 + R2) Value or just R2?