Jointing cable in wall to be filled and wiring zones

[Tauruselec]

Hi all. This is my first post on here so hopefully some of you will be able to suggest something other than my ideas. Worked as a spark for 19 years but mainly commercial so you guys will have better ways of doing domestic.
here's the question. Ive got a job in a Big detatched victorian house moving some sockets around. Sockets are mounted on skirting wired up via floor which is newly laid parque style and fancy coving so no chasing up or lifting floors. Customer does not want any blanking plates etc. Is it permissable to use either staggerd inline connectors/through crimps and heatshrink.
Customers has new board all RCBO circuits fitted during recent kitchen renovation.

new sockets will go on adjacent wall but will need to chase up a bit and across to new location. Again not ideal but does the RCBO cover as addition protection as not specifically in a wiring zone as original socket will be removed?

Hopefully I've made some sense.
thanks in advance all

 

[timhoward]

Hi and welcome
The alarm bells are
-sockets in skirting: cable could be very old. I'd inspect a good number and do IR tests before committing to anything
-kitchen fitted: kitchen fitters wiring is famous. The glimmer of hope is "all RCBO board" which suggests someone who knows something was involved
-newly laid: shows customer isn't at all practically minded and will expect miracles

Regarding zones, you are are either in a zone or have to use one of the methods in 522.6.204 which isn't going to be fun.
The RCBO doesn't avoid that unfortunately.
Is dropping down from the floor above an option as you could maybe start again then with a new circuit?

I have been astonishingly lucky with the super-rod chain and magnet thing in the past and managed to get a cable right under a room with parque flooring with minimal evidence remaining. I'm well aware it wasn't properly supported underneath but there wasn't much else I could do. A cheap remote camera to look under the floor void might pay for itself on this job.

Best of luck - this sounds painful and I hope you are getting good money for it!

 

[Tauruselec]

Hi and welcome
The alarm bells are
-sockets in skirting: cable could be very old. I'd inspect a good number and do IR tests before committing to anything
-kitchen fitted: kitchen fitters wiring is famous. The glimmer of hope is "all RCBO board" which suggests someone who knows something was involved
-newly laid: shows customer isn't at all practically minded and will expect miracles

Regarding zones, you are are either in a zone or have to use one of the methods in 522.6.204 which isn't going to be fun.
The RCBO doesn't avoid that unfortunately.
Is dropping down from the floor above an option as you could maybe start again then with a new circuit?

I have been astonishingly lucky with the super-rod chain and magnet thing in the past and managed to get a cable right under a room with parque flooring with minimal evidence remaining. I'm well aware it wasn't properly supported underneath but there wasn't much else I could do. A cheap remote camera to look under the floor void might pay for itself on this job.

Best of luck - this sounds painful and I hope you are getting good money for it!

Hi and welcome
The alarm bells are
-sockets in skirting: cable could be very old. I'd inspect a good number and do IR tests before committing to anything
-kitchen fitted: kitchen fitters wiring is famous. The glimmer of hope is "all RCBO board" which suggests someone who knows something was involved
-newly laid: shows customer isn't at all practically minded and will expect miracles

Regarding zones, you are are either in a zone or have to use one of the methods in 522.6.204 which isn't going to be fun.
The RCBO doesn't avoid that unfortunately.
Is dropping down from the floor above an option as you could maybe start again then with a new circuit?

I have been astonishingly lucky with the super-rod chain and magnet thing in the past and managed to get a cable right under a room with parque flooring with minimal evidence remaining. I'm well aware it wasn't properly supported underneath but there wasn't much else I could do. A cheap remote camera to look under the floor void might pay for itself on this job.

Best of luck - this sounds painful and I hope you are getting good money for it!

Thanks for the reply!

yeah it's a bit of a pain. New circuit would be too invasive. I may suggest leaving the current sockets in place that way if I wire up and across I will be within a zone created by the socket still on the skirting correct?

they could be hard work, they have money but as you said have high expectations. Why renovate a room after laying new flooring

 

[Dustydazzler]

When doing jobs like this ( I do a lot of awkward jobs other sparks can't be arsed to get involved with ) Leave the existing sockets where they are and take your new cables up / across by fishing / rodding / long drilling at angles etc.
Try to stay as close to the zones as possible , and I really do avoid jointing cables withing walls unless it is the very last resort.
What really gets my goat on these jobs is when I spend all day trying to hide cables for extra sockets and when I have been back to the house say a month later I see the old Plumber has run surface pipe work around the room. So its okay for wet plumber to do all surface pipes but not for us to run surface conduit,

 

[timhoward]

I may suggest leaving the current sockets in place that way if I wire up and across I will be within a zone created by the socket still on the skirting correct?

I like that idea more than creating a joint. Maybe show them a brass / chrome socket to replace the one in the skirting. Yes, straight up above it is fine and then you can turn 90 degrees if required to a socket.

 

[Tauruselec]

Brilliant thanks mate, appreciate the advice

 

[Tauruselec]

When doing jobs like this ( I do a lot of awkward jobs other sparks can't be arsed to get involved with ) Leave the existing sockets where they are and take your new cables up / across by fishing / rodding / long drilling at angles etc.
Try to stay as close to the zones as possible , and I really do avoid jointing cables withing walls unless it is the very last resort.
What really gets my goat on these jobs is when I spend all day trying to hide cables for extra sockets and when I have been back to the house say a month later I see the old Plumber has run surface pipe work around the room. So its okay for wet plumber to do all surface pipes but not for us to run surface conduit,

Your banking on there, I suggested where they wanted an additional ds/o on the skirting to put some mini trunking on the skirting. It would be hidden by table and sofa and there's heating pipes and surface plastic boxes but nope apparently that will look garbage next to all the other surface stuff so chase it in!!

 

[timhoward]

Your banking on there, I suggested where they wanted an additional ds/o on the skirting to put some mini trunking on the skirting. It would be hidden by table and sofa and there's heating pipes and surface plastic boxes but nope apparently that will look garbage next to all the other surface stuff so chase it in!!

Final throw of the dice - show them D-Line semi-circular trunking. It is much nicer on the eye. I even skimmed over and lightly sanded it once to make it look like it was part of the original plaster cornice in a national trust property.

 

[Tauruselec]

Final throw of the dice - show them D-Line semi-circular trunking. It is much nicer on the eye. I even skimmed over and lightly sanded it once to make it look like it was part of the original plaster cornice in a national trust property.

View attachment 108373

Nice, good idea that mate. Like you said much nicer on the eye

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Is it permissable to use either staggerd inline connectors/through crimps and heatshrink.

Buried in the wall, no. Requires a complete assembly complying with BS5733 MF which will incorporate strain relief etc. Note that most insulated crimps are not suitable for solid conductors.

 

[Marvo]

I'm not familiar with the UK rules on maintenance free connections but couldn't you use a small resin joint?

 

[Tauruselec]

Buried in the wall, no. Requires a complete assembly complying with BS5733 MF which will incorporate strain relief etc. Note that most insulated crimps are not suitable for solid conductors.

 

[timhoward]

@Tauruselec - I'm afraid that advertising is misleading. I'm am 99% sure that if you look into it they will only be classed as MF if you also use the Ideal In-Sure box.

 

[Aaron b]

Buried in the wall, no. Requires a complete assembly complying with BS5733 MF which will incorporate strain relief etc. Note that most insulated crimps are not suitable for solid conductors.

Is it that it's not suitable or that the standards do not mention solid conductors?

Final throw of the dice - show them D-Line semi-circular trunking. It is much nicer on the eye. I even skimmed over and lightly sanded it once to make it look like it was part of the original plaster cornice in a national trust property.

View attachment 108373

Is that a photo? It looks great if it is. I use the oval stuff quite a bit where people want extra sockets in decorated rooms. I have been quite lucky with getting the cable between dabs and just using the trunking horizontally.

 

[timhoward]

Is it that it's not suitable or that the standards do not mention solid conductors?

I know more than I want to about this following an argument with a CPS.

BS5733 MF has a list of 10 tests for an assembly to be suitable for MF joints.
A crimp wouldn't comply, nor would any single connection device be it a wago, ideal connector, choc bloc, etc. as the standard includes strain relief for the cable, needing a tool to open, being marked MF and a load of other stuff.
That is why I say above that an ideal connector cannot possibly comply on it's own.

Wago, and now Ideal have jumped through all the hoops and their enclosures and connectors together comply with BS5733 MG if you follow their precise instructions.

Stop reading now if you don't like sarcasm.

Previously Wago boxes and connectors only met the standards below so obviously this was totally inadequate:
Mechanical Tests.

* Pull-Out Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1, IEC/EN 60998-2-2, IEC/EN 60999-1

* Shock Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-27, 60068-2-30; Railway Applications IEC/EN 61373

* Vibration Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-6; Shipbuilding GL, LR, DNV; Railway Applications EN 61373

Electrical Tests

* Temperature-Rise Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1, IEC/EN 60998-1, IEC/EN 1-61984

* Derating Curve to IEC/EN 60512-5-2

* Voltage Drop Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1

* Short-Time Withstand Current Test (Short-Circuit Withstand Capacity) to IEC/EN 60947-7-1

* Insulation Parameters to IEC/EN 60664-1

* Power-Frequency Withstand Voltage Test to IEC/EN 60998-1

* Rated Impulse Withstand Voltage Test to IEC/EN 60664-1

* IP Ratings for Electrical Equipment to IEC/EN 60529

Material Tests

* Needle Flame Test to IEC/EN 60695-2-2

* Glow-Wire Test to IEC/EN 60998-1, IEC/EN 60695-2-11

Environmental Tests

* Temperature Cycling Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1, IEC/EN 60998-2-2

* Industrial Atmospheres to EN ISO 6988, IEC 60068-2-42, IEC/EN 60068-2-60

* Salt Spray Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-11, Marine Applications GL, LR, DNV

* Quick Change of Temperature to IEC/EN 60068-2-14


You'll be glad to know that they have now passed the newer 10 point test so we can use them after all.

 

[Aaron b]

I know more than I want to about this following an argument with a CPS.

BS5733 MF has a list of 10 tests for an assembly to be suitable for MF joints.
A crimp wouldn't comply, nor would any single connection device be it a wago, ideal connector, choc bloc, etc. as the standard includes strain relief for the cable, needing a tool to open, being marked MF and a load of other stuff.
That is why I say above that an ideal connector cannot possibly comply on it's own.

Wago, and now Ideal have jumped through all the hoops and their enclosures and connectors together comply with BS5733 MG if you follow their precise instructions.

Stop reading now if you don't like sarcasm.

Previously Wago boxes and connectors only met the standards below so obviously this was totally inadequate:
Mechanical Tests.

* Pull-Out Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1, IEC/EN 60998-2-2, IEC/EN 60999-1

* Shock Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-27, 60068-2-30; Railway Applications IEC/EN 61373

* Vibration Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-6; Shipbuilding GL, LR, DNV; Railway Applications EN 61373

Electrical Tests

* Temperature-Rise Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1, IEC/EN 60998-1, IEC/EN 1-61984

* Derating Curve to IEC/EN 60512-5-2

* Voltage Drop Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1

* Short-Time Withstand Current Test (Short-Circuit Withstand Capacity) to IEC/EN 60947-7-1

* Insulation Parameters to IEC/EN 60664-1

* Power-Frequency Withstand Voltage Test to IEC/EN 60998-1

* Rated Impulse Withstand Voltage Test to IEC/EN 60664-1

* IP Ratings for Electrical Equipment to IEC/EN 60529

Material Tests

* Needle Flame Test to IEC/EN 60695-2-2

* Glow-Wire Test to IEC/EN 60998-1, IEC/EN 60695-2-11

Environmental Tests

* Temperature Cycling Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1, IEC/EN 60998-2-2

* Industrial Atmospheres to EN ISO 6988, IEC 60068-2-42, IEC/EN 60068-2-60

* Salt Spray Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-11, Marine Applications GL, LR, DNV

* Quick Change of Temperature to IEC/EN 60068-2-14


You'll be glad to know that they have now passed the newer 10 point test so we can use them after all.

And how is a crimp or solder connection any less likely to be pulled apart whilst plastered in than a socket? A lot of this BS is trying to do the thinking for people and make money from it. I believe the wago boxes need to be installed in free air and fixed with the silly button thingy too.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

And how is a crimp or solder connection any less likely to be pulled apart whilst plastered in than a socket?

It's not just pulling apart. When cables are terminated within an enclosure e.g. the back box of an accessory, there should be some slack that allows for a bit of differential movement due to thermal cycling of the terminal and conductor. If the cable is rigidly plastered in directly up to the terminal, any thermal stresses are more likely to be transferred to contact surfaces and accelerate frettage corrosion.

There is indeed some BS in some of the products but the technology of terminals and connection methods is more complex than it looks and is not just manufacturers trying to fleece you. It's a field that I study because I need to make high-reliability connections. I don't like the MF specs as they are, but I can understand how and why they have evolved the way they have.

Re. crimps, many generic products are not made to any particular specs of any significance. They are just random bits of bent metal that work for Joe Bloggs to add a pair of aftermarket fog lamps to his car. Once you start digging through the detailed specs of the proper products from the likes of Klauke, AMP etc you start seeing the differences.