Live working?

[paul-bristol]

What are peoples views on what constitutes “Live working”. The guidance in HSG85 is not very specific.

For example:

Working in an old distribution board with exposed busbars I think everyone would agree is live working. But what about a new Schneider board with all the line terminals covered to IP2X? The neutral bar is still expose and that is a live busbar?

What about a domestic consumer unit, generally the line busbar is exposed so unless the main switch is operated that is live working (unless you think that bit of clip-on plastic is sufficient), but then the terminals of the main switch are still present and only IP2X or IPXXB?

Its difficult to arrange a shutdown to work in a 12way TPN DB just for a minor alteration or to disconnect a circuit, but does this mean you are liable to prosecution for removing the cover with it switched on?

What are people doing in these situations?

 

[oscar21]

Who exactly is going to prosecute you? Unless you are daft enough to report yourself to the HSE if you get a belt whilst poking around inside a live consumer unit.

 

[newfutile]

The law is quite clear I think, but hinges around what is reasonable.my take on it is don't do it unless you have no other way, I routinely shut down offices for a few minutes,it's usually OK if people OK know.

Regulation 14 of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 (EWR) states that:

No person shall be engaged in any work activity on or so near any live conductor (other than one suitably covered with insulating material so as to prevent danger) that danger may arise unless:

(a) it is unreasonable in all the circumstances for it to be dead; and
(b) it is reasonable in all the circumstances for him to be at work on or near it while it is live; and
(c) suitable precautions (including where necessary the provision of suitable protective equipment) are taken to prevent injury.

This regulation applies to all activities during which it is necessary to work in close proximity to energised and exposed or inadequately insulated live parts where this may foreseeably give rise to danger. This would include activities such as carrying out the safe isolation procedure, checking the polarity of an incoming supply and testing earth fault loop impedance or RCD functionality. This is confirmed in paragraph 207 of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989. Guidance on Regulations (HSR25) published by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).

 

[paul-bristol]

Who exactly is going to prosecute you? Unless you are daft enough to report yourself to the HSE if you get a belt whilst poking around inside a live consumer unit.

Always get the main contract questioning how you are doing things and who knows when HSE will turn up on site, I would rather stay the right side of any laws even if getting caught is unlikely.

 

[westward10]

I presume you have RAMS?

 

[littlespark]

I presume you have RAMS?

Don’t know about rams, but @Moley might…. Looking at his profile pic

 

[paul-bristol]

The law is quite clear I think, but hinges around what is reasonable.my take on it is don't do it unless you have no other way, I routinely shut down offices for a few minutes,it's usually OK if people OK know.

Regulation 14 of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 (EWR) states that:

No person shall be engaged in any work activity on or so near any live conductor (other than one suitably covered with insulating material so as to prevent danger) that danger may arise unless:

(a) it is unreasonable in all the circumstances for it to be dead; and
(b) it is reasonable in all the circumstances for him to be at work on or near it while it is live; and
(c) suitable precautions (including where necessary the provision of suitable protective equipment) are taken to prevent injury.

This regulation applies to all activities during which it is necessary to work in close proximity to energised and exposed or inadequately insulated live parts where this may foreseeably give rise to danger. This would include activities such as carrying out the safe isolation procedure, checking the polarity of an incoming supply and testing earth fault loop impedance or RCD functionality. This is confirmed in paragraph 207 of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989. Guidance on Regulations (HSR25) published by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).

That is exactly what I was asking, what is "inadequately insulated" in a new board with all terminals insulated to IP2X is that adequately insulated? Clearly you can also mitigate the risks, barriers, insulated tools, 2 people in attendance. You would isolate the board when you can but very often that means coming back out of hours with the associated costs.
Clearly RAMS are needed for all works but perhaps the person who commented on that could explain how they assess that, is it unreasonable in all circumstances to Isolate the supply? and how that piece of paper keeps him safe?
You need to know what is an adequate level of insulation.
I cannot think of any situation outside a hospital when it is "unreasonable in all circumstances" to Isolate a board, also I do not believe that ALL electricians would switch off a 1250A MCCB Isolate an entire factory to work on a 10a fire alarm supply or 40a machine supply.
Or when you are 100miles from base having worked a 10 hour day would then wait untill after 6pm to switch a board off to do the final connection of a single small circuit, possibly requiring a night lodging due to the hours worked (many companies have a limit on how long you can work and then drive, a sensible policy but could influence your decision on what is unreasonable in all circumstances). There is a middle ground and i was interested the hear what other people's views were.

 

[littlespark]

I know the regs state “on or near” live conductors…. But even working in a simple domestic consumer unit, with the mainswitch off, there is still live terminals at the top of the mainswitch, theoretically exposed. (No upstream isolator)

A trained electrician understands the risks and would not be poking about.

If we shouldn’t be working in a board with the power still on somewhere in it, they wouldn’t have designed bus bar shields.