MCB, RCD & AFDD all in one

[Zdb]

These things are blooming huge!

Oh and £170

 

[Octopus]

How stupid is that

 

[SparkyChick]

No incentive to make them smaller... bigger devices = bigger boards = more money for the manufacturers

 

[buzzlightyear]

These things are blooming huge!

commercial only for them ,you want be putting them in domestic ,it would be the film jaws ,we need a bigger consumer unit or bigger boat .

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Nice one device to trip, 3 possible causes.
Should make troubleshooting a doddle.

 

[Pete999]

I believe they have produced a 1 module one.

 

[Toneyz]

No incentive to make them smaller... bigger devices = bigger boards = more money for the manufacturers

These builders will have to wake up and allow bigger electrical plant rooms.

 

[Zdb]

So the test button is for the RCD and not the AFDD I'm guessing.

Anybody know if there is a prescribed disconnection time that these AFDDs will have to meet?

Just wondering how they can be tested. New setting on the multifunction testers will be next I reckon £££

 

[Deleted member 105166]

The all in one 3 module width jobby from MEM Eaton is actually cheaper than the equivalent from Siemens, a 1 module width AFDD that mates with a 2 module width SP+N RCBO.
At the moment there's not many players in the marketplace, hence the ridiculously high pricing. That will change over the next 6-12 months.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

So the test button is for the RCD and not the AFDD I'm guessing.

Anybody know if there is a prescribed disconnection time that these AFDDs will have to meet?

Just wondering how they can be tested. New setting on the multifunction testers will be next I reckon £££

There isn’t any way to test AFDDs, without reducing their longevity or making them unserviceable.
All you do is look at the indicator, if it’s green, good to go.
If it’s red, replace.

 

[Simonslimline]

Its all getting out of hand to be honest. Electricians are being taken for total mugs these days. Glad i dont do any domestic work anymore.

 

[rapparee]

Its all getting out of hand to be honest. Electricians are being taken for total mugs these days. Glad i dont do any domestic work anymore.

I've never done domestic

Will industrial electricians be exempt from fitting these things, are they only to be fitted in residential properties

I have literally no idea what they are for

I haven't been paying attention to be honest.

 

[Octopus]

I have literally no idea what they are for

I don’t think the IET do either

It’s the manufacturers on JPEL who have been pushing them .... because there is money to be made

As for introducing them..... unless there is sensibly priced test equipment they need to stay on the back burner .....

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I haven’t read or purchased a copy of the 18th, but I thought someone said these were advised for domestic and compulsory for the rest?

 

[Deleted member 105166]

These things have been around a while across the pond and it seems there is test equipment available, e.g. Greenlee AFI-100. As has already been suggested, I reckon the MFT manufacturers will waste no time jumping on the bandwagon and launch a new range of 18th ed. testers with this as new functionality.

 

[rapparee]

These things have been around a while across the pond and it seems there is test equipment available, e.g. Greenlee AFI-100. As has already been suggested, I reckon the MFT manufacturers will waste no time jumping on the bandwagon and launch a new range of 18th ed. testers with this as new functionality.

Fluke T+PRO Electrical Tester 95969327923 | eBay - https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fluke-T-PRO-Electrical-Tester/192561592597?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D52962%26meid%3D8571d8a5e7bf47c19c22ab9f028b3791%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D192561592597%26itm%3D192561592597&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Aad82fb35-82d4-11e8-9456-74dbd1803e5b%7Cparentrq%3A7af254541640add89ecbb937fff225ca%7Ciid%3A1

Well at least fluke do a tester, so it's another one for the collection.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Fluke T+PRO Electrical Tester 95969327923 | eBay - https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fluke-T-PRO-Electrical-Tester/192561592597?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D52962%26meid%3D8571d8a5e7bf47c19c22ab9f028b3791%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D192561592597%26itm%3D192561592597&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Aad82fb35-82d4-11e8-9456-74dbd1803e5b%7Cparentrq%3A7af254541640add89ecbb937fff225ca%7Ciid%3A1

Well at least fluke do a tester, so it's another one for the collection.

That’s a voltage tester?

 

[Simonslimline]

I just meant that as i work for a big company it doesn't matter to me personally as we fit whatever the spec is for the client.

The price for complying with these new regs is going to be a pain for small domestic jobs when changing boards etc. Just more expense for everyone.

I've never done domestic

Will industrial electricians be exempt from fitting these things, are they only to be fitted in residential properties

I have literally no idea what they are for

I haven't been paying attention to be honest.

 

[Simonslimline]

I just meant that as i work for a big company it doesn't matter to me personally as we fit whatever the spec is for the client.

The price for complying with these new regs is going to be a pain for small domestic jobs when changing boards etc. Just more expense for everyone.

I've never done domestic

Will industrial electricians be exempt from fitting these things, are they only to be fitted in residential properties

I have literally no idea what they are for

I haven't been paying attention to be honest.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think I must be getting confused!
I thought these AFDDs were nothing more than surge protectors?

 

[rapparee]

That’s a voltage tester?

That’s a voltage tester?

It has a built in gfci tester.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It has a built in gfci tester.

Yes so have some of those Martindale type socket testers.
I thought it was a link to an AFDD tester?

 

[Nigel]

commercial only for them ,you want be putting them in domestic ,it would be the film jaws ,we need a bigger consumer unit or bigger boat .

No requirement to install in domestic. Only high risk areas such as flammable sites, places of historic importance and areas with high public usage.

 

[Nigel]

I think I must be getting confused!
I thought these AFDDs were nothing more than surge protectors?

They measure arc faults. The clue is in the name haha

 

[Wes1000]

For anyone who’s not seen the regulation covering these AFDD’s it’s as follows;

421.1.7 arc fault detection devices conforming to BS EN 62606 are recommended as a means of providing additional protection against fire caused by arc faults in AC final circuits.
If used, an AFDD shall be placed at the origin of the circuit to be protected.
NOTE: Examples of where such devices can be used include:
•premises with sleeping accommodation
•locations with a risk of fire due to the nature of processed or stored materials, ie B2 locations (e.g barns, woodworking shops, stores of combustible materials)
• locations with combustible construction materials i.e. CA2 locations (e.g. wooden buildings)
• fire propagating structures i.e. CB2 locations
• locations with endangering of irreplaceable goods.

 

[Rockingit]

'premises with sleeping accommodation' is a bit ambiguous, though. I'm assuming they mean hotels?

 

[Wes1000]

'premises with sleeping accommodation' is a bit ambiguous, though. I'm assuming they mean hotels?

Or is it aimed at blocks of flats too??

 

[Toneyz]

Notice the word RECOMMENDED I wonder if that will change with the amendments.

 

[Toneyz]

'premises with sleeping accommodation' is a bit ambiguous, though. I'm assuming they mean hotels?

That's my take on it.

 

[Wes1000]

I thought it was going to be beefed out in the next amendment. Only what I heard though.

 

[Rockingit]

Or is it aimed at blocks of flats too??

May also make sense since Grenfell but then you'd have thought they'd listed BMO's

 

[rolyberkin]

Recommended is too ambiguous to cause me any concern, by the time the reg becomes mandatory they will have tumbled in price and be the size of a single rcbo. Next!

 

[Nigel]

That's my take on it.

I agree. Blocks of flats are dwellings. Not sleeping accommodation.

 

[Wes1000]

Flats and HMO etc will be saved for the next book then?

 

[Nigel]

Seems these things are elusive.

Eaton are quoting £160 per combined unit and a 16 day lead time.

They also do not do 3 phase units.

??????

 

[Pete999]

Seems these things are elusive.

Eaton are quoting £160 per combined unit and a 16 day lead time.

They also do not do 3 phase units.

??????

Also according to the NIC presenters, ADDS will not work on a RFC, they didn't give a very good explanation on the film they produced, but the fact that AFDDs won't work on a RFC according to them was something that stuck in my mind.

 

[EalingBadger]

Also according to the NIC presenters, ADDS will not work on a RFC, they didn't give a very good explanation on the film they produced, but the fact that AFDDs won't work on a RFC according to them was something that stuck in my mind.

Can anybody throw any further light on this?

It seems a crazy limitation.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Perhaps they work by detecting the gaps in the flow of current caused between arcs.
An RFC would have the gaps in current on one conductor filled in by the current flow on the other conductor.

 

[EalingBadger]

Perhaps they work by detecting the gaps in the flow of current caused between arcs.
An RFC would have the gaps in current on one conductor filled in by the current flow on the other conductor.

Ah, yes. Good point. Obvious when one gives it the merest moment of thought.

 

[Wes1000]

They will work on parallel arc faults on an RFC but won’t detect a series fault on the ring itself although they will detect both types of arc on any equipment connected to the ring or spurs etc as there is no additional leg to compensate.

 

[Nigel]

In conclusion if you are installing sockets in a building that requires AFDDs don’t install RFCs.

 

[Marvo]

Whilst AFD's don't detect series arc faults on a ring final cct that mode of fault is not as dangerous on a ring because of the parallel path available for the load current so it's kinda swings and roundabouts....

 

[paullyons]

This may shed a bit more light on what the future holds

 

[johnduffell]

Things can be in the regs even without a tester - after all there's never been a tester for the magnetic or thermal parts of an MCB/RCBO, only for the residual current part. Dame goes for fuses for that matter. so we have no idea if they still work when doing inspection and testing.

 

[Bobster]

Things can be in the regs even without a tester - after all there's never been a tester for the magnetic or thermal parts of an MCB/RCBO, only for the residual current part. Dame goes for fuses for that matter. so we have no idea if they still work when doing inspection and testing.

But if a fuse blows or an MCB trips you have test equipment to diagnose the fault quickly and reliably every time.

No such thing with these devices, one might keep tripping due to a natural arc in a circuit (something switching). How do you fault find that.... just start replacing parts at an unnecessary cost.

 

[Spoon]

'premises with sleeping accommodation' is a bit ambiguous, though. I'm assuming they mean hotels?

It is very ambiguous. The Oxford Dictionary says 'Accommodation' is "A room, group of rooms, or building in which someone may live or stay. ‘they were living in temporary accommodation’ "

Doesn't that put every house down as having "sleeping accommodation" ?

 

[johnduffell]

But if a fuse blows or an MCB trips you have test equipment to diagnose the fault quickly and reliably every time.

Yes, you can just look at the switch or at the melted fuse. But the same applies to the afdd. I thought people meant testing the device itself for correct operation, which you can only do with rcds.

With rcds you can test the rcd itself, and you can ir test the circuit.

With fuses and mcbs you can only test the circuit.
With afdds not sure! Maybe neither?

 

[Wilko]

It is very ambiguous. The Oxford Dictionary says 'Accommodation' is "A room, group of rooms, or building in which someone may live or stay. ‘they were living in temporary accommodation’ "

Doesn't that put every house down as having "sleeping accommodation" ?

Yep.
Fortunately 421.1.7 has two softeners for now. It says "If used..." and then gives "Examples of where such devices can be used...". This will change to "shall be used" at some point I guess.

 

[Bobster]

With fuses and mcbs you can only test the circuit.
With afdds not sure! Maybe neither?

Neither unless you're in a lab.

You maybe able to pick up a fault on the circuit with an IR but doubtful, as a L>N short should trip the MCB.

 

[Spoon]

Yep.
Fortunately 421.1.7 has two softeners for now. It says "If used..." and then gives "Examples of where such devices can be used...". This will change to "shall be used" at some point I guess.

But, pinching this from the earlier post, it also has:
421.1.7 arc fault detection devices conforming to BS EN 62606 are recommended as a means of providing additional protection against fire caused by arc faults in AC final circuits.

If there is a fire and it goes to court and the court says "BS6761 recommend that you use Arc Fault Detection Devices. Why didn't you fit them?" Where would you stand from a legal point of view?