new reqs

[shanky887614]

See you in the Foresters sometime in the new year?

if i'm ever in high speed pursuit of robin hood, i'll let you know and meet in the foresters.

ah i see now why tony likes it in there

from google

New Foresters
www.newforesters.com/
Welcome to the New Foresters web site. The oldest traditional Gay Bar. Heated Beer Garden, 6 Heater ... Join our Facebook Page. New Foresters Nottingham ...

 

[Plonker 3]

Dont knock it shanky until you have tried it.

 

[Guest125]

Please answer me:

1) are building regs law?
2) do the refer to BS7671 as the installation standard to be followed?
My answer to both these questions is yes so if you fail to install to BS7671 you are breaking the law.

 

[shanky887614]

UKES. The key part is it is only for installations designed on or after January 2015. It is not retrospective.

july actually, the regs is just released in jan

 

[Plonker 3]

1 No, there is no act of Parliament covering them.
2 yes, i believe it does.

 

[Guest125]

The Building Act 1984 is the primary legislation under which the Building Regulations and other secondary legislation are made.

so it is law.

 

[TJ Anderson]

july actually, the regs is just released in jan

That may be open to interpretation that one Shanky, that is the transition period. I wouldn't design in the transition to old regs and then install beyond that 6 months as I could just as easily design to new regs.
Implementation Dates:
1st January 2015 - The Third amendment to BS 7671:2008, The IET Wiring Regulations, became effective on this date. Following this, contractors have a six month transition period to get up to speed with the changes and can design, install and certify to either the new or previous standard.

 

[Guest125]

So thats now twice today you have read something I Have posted and interpreted it completly wrong, unless I am wrong then can you please post up any posts where I have said that please?

You said clearly earlier that you can choose to not follow BS7671 and you cannot be prosecuted for it. You actually said that. I said you were wrong and irresponsible to say that and only an idiot of an electrician would say something like that.

 

[Plonker 3]

ok i stand corrected, now where abouts does it say about all electrical installations have to comply with BS7671?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I have no evidence to believe you or disbelieve you I can only read what the guidelines say about this amendment which is that after the 1st July ALL INSTALLATIONS must be installed to amendment 3.

I know that there have been many concerns regarding this particular issue, particularly due to the Olympic Site.
It may well be that from this amendment things will be changed so that if construction begins after an amendment or new edition comes into force, then the installation must comply with the new requirements?
However as it stands, the requirements are neither retrospective, or applicable before they are produced and issued.

 

[Plonker 3]

You said clearly earlier that you can choose to not follow BS7671 and you cannot be prosecuted for it. You actually said that. I said you were wrong and irresponsible to say that and only an idiot of an electrician would say something like that.

Please quote that actual post please.

 

[Guest125]

That may be open to interpretation that one Shanky, that is the transition period. I wouldn't design in the transition to old regs and then install beyond that 6 months as I could just as easily design to new regs.
Implementation Dates:
1st January 2015 - The Third amendment to BS 7671:2008, The IET Wiring Regulations, became effective on this date. Following this, contractors have a six month transition period to get up to speed with the changes and can design, install and certify to either the new or previous standard.

that is exactly my point.

 

[Guest125]

Originally Posted by UKESRail
What do you mean why not? Because we are told to.Because the law states we follow BS7671 and that is what we are here to do. If it was me I would start talking with my clients and advising them of their options. Ultimately after the 1st July you cannot work to an old version of the regs. We all have 6 months to sort this out so therebis no excuse. I really was expecting better than this on here.



What law would that be then?

You do realise that BS7671 is only a guide and not a statute document, meaning we can choose to ignore it completly if we wish?

 

[Guest125]

Posted by you earlier.

 

[Plonker 3]

So nothing about not being prosecuted as you claimed I said then.

 

[Guest125]

You said it was not law so therefor that woukd mean that you thought you could not be prosecuted maybe you should ba a little clearer because you are now trying to get out of this by a technicality. Accept you were wrong and move on.

 

[Plonker 3]

So your jumping to conclusions, please stop it and read what I put not what youmthink I meant to say.

 

[TJ Anderson]

that is exactly my point.

I am only referring to the 6 month transition period as we would then have the opportunity to design to new regs so we might aswell. I am not referring to designs from before January 2015, they would still stand. That is how is it is at the moment but, as another member has said, it may change in the future.

 

[Farmelectrics]

Think tel and Dilib are right I'll spend my money on more beer ha ha

 

[Deleted member 26818]

You said it was not law so therefor that woukd mean that you thought you could not be prosecuted maybe you should ba a little clearer because you are now trying to get out of this by a technicality. Accept you were wrong and move on.

Please get a grip.
You can be prosecuted for a number of things, but failing to comply with the requirements of BS7671 is not (as yet) one of them.

 

[Farmelectrics]

I've caused reqs war with the question lol

 

[Deleted member 26818]

What was the question?

 

[Guest125]

Please get a grip.
You can be prosecuted for a number of things, but failing to comply with the requirements of BS7671 is not (as yet) one of them.

But you can be prosecuted under the Building Act that refers to the Building Regs that refers to the Elec regs. Yes?

 

[ipf]

I've caused reqs war with the question lol

I think everybody's getting mixed up....He's on about requisitions not regulations

 

[Deleted member 26818]

You can be prosecuted with failing to comply with the requirements of the Building Regulations.
However the Building Regulations only indicate that satisfying the requirements of BS7671 is one method of compliance.

 

[Guest125]

Give me an alternative?

 

[davesparks]

Please answer me:

1) are building regs law?
2) do the refer to BS7671 as the installation standard to be followed?
My answer to both these questions is yes so if you fail to install to BS7671 you are breaking the law.

Does BS7671 allow deviations from its own rules to be made by skilled persons designing installations?

Funnily enough yes it does, so you can deviate from bs7671 and still comply with it!

 

[Farmelectrics]

Ignore the post ha ha

 

[telectrix]

Give me an alternative?

gas lamps.

 

[Guest125]

Does BS7671 allow deviations from its own rules to be made by skilled persons designing installations?

Funnily enough yes it does, so you can deviate from bs7671 and still comply with it!

and if you get it wrong what would a judge use to as their guidline. BS7671. So effectively stick to BS7671 and you cannot be wrong.

 

[Plonker 3]

and if you get it wrong what would a judge use to as their guidline. BS7671. So effectively stick to BS7671 and you cannot be wrong.

A judge would use nothing as a guideline until something is presented by either the prosecution or defence.

 

[Guest125]

A judge would use nothing as a guideline until something is presented by either the prosecution or defence.

This is ridiculous now.

 

[Plonker 3]

Biggest disclaimer of the day goes too BS7671

 

[Guest125]

Agreed but that protects them not us. It stops someone saying "but that is what it said to do". It is all balls but it is still law. Through the back door granted but still law.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Give me an alternative?

Certainly.
BS7671 requires that any addition or alteration before being put into use, should be inspected and tested, and appropriate certification issued.
Failure to conduct inspection, testing and issuing the appropriate certification would not necessarily impair the safety of the installation, however the work would not comply with BS7671.

 

[davesparks]

and if you get it wrong what would a judge use to as their guidline. BS7671. So effectively stick to BS7671 and you cannot be wrong.

The electricity at work regulations, along with bs7671 and all other relevant BS documents and expert advisors/witnesses.

There are many many installations and areas of the industry where all sorts of other rules take precedence over bs7671.

Bs7671 is not the be all and end all of electrical installations and safety, it is but one standard we have to consider when working.

Personally I have to deal with bs7909 in one of the sectors of the industry I work in.

 

[Farmelectrics]

What is bs 7909 what line of work

 

[spark 68]

This is ridiculous now.

You have a lot to learn young Jedi :beatnik2:, listen to your uncle Spin, and uncle Dilib, lol, they are correct, if you actually listened to what they are saying, and not what you "think" they are saying, then you might just learn something.

 

[davesparks]

What is bs 7909 what line of work

Bs7909-2011 The Code of Practice for the creation and operation of Temporary Electrical Systems for Entertainment and Related Purposes.

That line of work is temporary supply and distribution for festivals/outdoor events/theatre etc etc

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The term 'deviation' is not something used by BS7671.
A departure is something that doesn't comply with the requirements of BS7671 is, but which the designer must attest provides the same degree of safety as would be achieved by compliance with BS7671.
A non-compliance or defect is something that would either require rectification before an EIC or MIEWC is issued, or would require (if dangerous or potentially dangerous) being commented upon in an EICR.

 

[Guest125]

You have a lot to learn young Jedi :beatnik2:, listen to your uncle Spin, and uncle Dilib, lol, they are correct, if you actually listened to what they are saying, and not what you "think" they are saying, then you might just learn something.

I am all for learning. That is how I got to where I am. But not by listening to day 1 of 'commmon myths about the electrical game'

 

[Anthony S]

I am all for learning. That is how I got to where I am. But not by listening to day 1 of 'commmon myths about the electrical game'

What myths are they then ?

 

[PEG]

and if you get it wrong what would a judge use to as their guidline. BS7671. So effectively stick to BS7671 and you cannot be wrong.

...Thank goodness for that...i can go back to a few jobs,and pull them earth rods out a couple of meters...:icon12:

 

[ipf]

I am all for learning. That is how I got to where I am. But not by listening to day 1 of 'commmon myths about the electrical game'

Like calling lamps and tubes, bulbs :bulb2:

 

[spark 68]

The only "myths" so far is that BS7671 is the be all and end all, you might consider reading the very beginning of the current regs to gain a better understanding.

if you are only doing domestic small jobs then of course it makes sense to work to current regs, Spin already gave you an example of a large project that spans multiple versions of BS7671, in fact BS7671 itself actually states any design started after new regs (the January date) comes into force must be to the new current regs, the keywords "designed after".

Also BS7671 states by following the standards as laid down in BS7671 then conformity to the relevant parts of the EAWR legislation is "likely" to be achieved, (only likely?) lol.

 

[GB.Kayak]

Implementation Dates:
1st January 2015 - The Third amendment to BS 7671:2008, The IET Wiring Regulations, became effective on this date. Following this, contractors have a six month transition period to get up to speed with the changes and can design, install and certify to either the new or previous standard.
1st July 2015 – From this date it is a requirement that all electrical installations designed and periodically inspected comply with the updated regulations. Contractors will be expected to hold a copy of BS 7671:2008, incorporating Amendment 3, for any assessment visit taking place after this date.
1st January 2016 – Regulation 421.1.201 (PROTECTION AGAINST FIRE CAUSED BY ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT) comes into full effect.

Take care when reading and interpreting formal documents ... 1st Jan - 30th Jun Contractors 'can design, install and certify to either the new OR previous standard'; from 1st Jul 'it is a requirement that all electrical installations designed and periodically inspected comply with the updated regulations.' It is interesting to note that installation is excluded from the second list.


For those with greater insight, if something that is periodically inspected must comply with the updated regulations, does this mean retrospective application or is there likely to be an equivalent to the 'Note by the Health and Safety Executive' which is on P12 of Amendment No: 1? This note states that 'Installations which conform to the standards laid down in BS 7671:2008 are regarded by HSE as likely to achieve conformity with the relevant parts of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989.' It goes on to describe how existing installations designed and installed to earlier editions will not fail to conform to the relevant parts of the EaWR 1989.

 

[Guest125]

What myths are they then ?

I am sorry mate but I just cannot do it!!

 

[GB.Kayak]

The only "myths" so far is that BS7671 is the be all and end all, you might consider reading the very beginning of the current regs to gain a better understanding.

if you are only doing domestic small jobs then of course it makes sense to work to current regs, Spin already gave you an example of a large project that spans multiple versions of BS7671, in fact BS7671 itself actually states any design started after new regs (the January date) comes into force must be to the new current regs, the keywords "designed after".

Also BS7671 states by following the standards as laid down in BS7671 then conformity to the relevant parts of the EAWR legislation is "likely" to be achieved, (only likely?) lol.

spark 68 ... you got there before me! However, do note that both standards can be used from 1 Jan 2015 up until 30 Jun 2015.

 

[Guest125]

Are we in agreement that after the 1st of July you should not be installing to the previous version? Regardless whether or not it is designed in December 2014.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

One of the problems the IET has, is that any new requirements suggest that earlier versions are unsafe.
Due to this they issue a disclaimer which they hope will prevent litigation for issuing poor or even dangerous advice in earlier versions.

No I cannot at this time agree that installations must be constructed to the new requirements after the 1st of July, without first seeing the final draft of the new requirements.
From what has been posted, it appears that if the design is to the current requirements then even if construction begins after the new requirements come into force, it can still be constructed to the requirements in force at the time of design.