Part P investigation.

[tonys]

The truth is, like it or not, Part P is the law in England and Wales, and failure to comply with it is a criminal offence

There are lots of laws created by Parliament to which people prefer just to ignore. When you see your TAXES paying for ex MP's Husbands to watch **** and others to pay cleaners and buy biscuits etc, do you really blame people for not subscribing to these schemes ? I don't give a monkeys, I'm just going about minding my own business and looking after my own affairs.

I'm a QS, so have no problems writing out and issuing certificates with a NICEIC Approved logo, so have no need to worry about anything. But for others to get involved helping trading standards/building control or who-ever to try and help nail an Electrician who took their chances to earn a living and done a proper job, well in my book are wronguns and would not be welcome on a job with or near me.

Live and let live is my moto especially when the banks/elite and the scheme FREELOADERS are ripping the **** out of us.

 

[SMB]

Anger.

 

[ukpablo]

tony, i hate the rules and regs the same as everybody else, however thay are put in place to produce a standard across the board, we are not talking about taxes, nailing a specific sparkie etc etc, we are talking about somebody breaking the law!
This is fact and if it was not then anybody who can pick up a screwdriver would be doing our job.
Yes its a rip off all this part P!
Yes its aload of bull too!
but thats the law and the rules, so break them at ur own peril because if somebody gets killed by something u have done and u cannot justify it etc, then u will be doing bird and being not registered will be the ammunition they will be looking for from the off!

 

[tonys]

so break them at ur own peril because if somebody gets killed by something u have done and u cannot justify it etc, then u will be doing bird and being not registered will be the ammunition they will be looking for from the off!

Is the above aimed at me, or you just generalizing ? I think the latter.

Breaking the law by not registering electrical work with building control as nothing to with the standard of work carried out. Two totally different issues whether or not your registered with a scheme provider. Carrying out bad unsafe work would come under a different charge in the courts.

Building Control are fully aware that a 17th Edition 2391 Electrician does not have to be registered with a Part P scheme provider to be competent to carry out electrical work and certify it. That is the reason they will/prepared to accept Certificates from people like me with out belonging to any Part P scheme provider. (even though I'm a QS and can do a cert anyway)

The only law being broken is failing to notify building control and even Part P members can fail to do this.

 

[ukpablo]

tonys, im not aiming it at u mate, just generalising. what u say is true to some extent. i dont get into slanging matches on here, i just make comment on a thread with an opinion.
whether it be my opinion or fact, so i hope the spark does not get in any trouble, however im sure it will put the frighteners on him for future jobs regarding notification.

Happy sparking to all!

 

[tonys]

Pablo

Thought you was generalizing mate and I hope the spark don't get into bother either.

 

[BlueToBits]

There are lots of laws created by Parliament to which people prefer just to ignore. When you see your TAXES paying for ex MP's Husbands to watch **** and others to pay cleaners and buy biscuits etc, do you really blame people for not subscribing to these schemes ? I don't give a monkeys, I'm just going about minding my own business and looking after my own affairs.

I'm a QS, so have no problems writing out and issuing certificates with a NICEIC Approved logo, so have no need to worry about anything. But for others to get involved helping trading standards/building control or who-ever to try and help nail an Electrician who took their chances to earn a living and done a proper job, well in my book are wronguns and would not be welcome on a job with or near me.

Live and let live is my moto especially when the banks/elite and the scheme FREELOADERS are ripping the **** out of us.

Are you saying that you pay £££s for NICEIC approval, to be 100% legit, and you are happy that other 'free-loading' electricians should be left alone and allowed to break the law because they are 'only trying to make a living' and if it's OK for MPs to cheat their expenses, it's open season for electricians to break the law because you think it's a bit crappy?

A taxi driver may appear be the best driver in the country and is credentials look fine to you. Is it OK with you if he does not actually hold a driving licence? Would you give him £2000 up front in taxi fares to drive you and your family around for the next 40 years knowing that if there was an accident, you may not have any recourse? After all, he's only trying to make a living...

Do you think that the customer should have taken the same attitude and 'put up and shut up'?

 

[tonys]

NICEIC Approved Contractors get automatic part p status, so its costs them nothing. I have access to certs because I'm a QS of a friends company, so I can issue certs for nothing, but that's neither here nor there.

Its a fact that Qualified Electricians, do not need to register with a part p scheme to carry out work in domestic dwellings.

An unregistered part p but competent Electrician is allowed to carry out Electrical Work in a Domestic Dwelling! Not Against the Law.

The Taxi driver who does not hold a driving not be driving a motor vehicle full stop. Against the Law.

So your comparison is way off, therefore the two are not comparable imo.

 

[BlueToBits]

NICEIC Approved Contractors get automatic part p status, so its costs them nothing. I have access to certs because I'm a QS of a friends company, so I can issue certs for nothing, but that's neither here nor there.
.

Not quite. It still costs to notify as required by part P

Its a fact that Qualified Electricians, do not need to register with a part p scheme to carry out work in domestic dwellings.

Agreed. Anyone can do electrical work in a domestic dwelling.

An unregistered part p but competent Electrician is allowed to carry out Electrical Work in a Domestic Dwelling! Not Against the Law.

Agreed as above. Anyone can work in a domestic dwelling, but it's against the law for the installer to fail to notify LABC under part P. The approved contractor does it on completeion through their scheme, the non-approved contractor does it in advance direct to their building control department.

The Taxi driver who does not hold a driving not be driving a motor vehicle full stop. Against the Law.

The same as an electrician who does not notify LABC under part P full stop. Against the law.

So your comparison is way off, therefore the two are not comparable imo.

I disagree. Both are breaking the law because neither carries the correct documentation. The taxi driver has no licence from DVLC to drive, the contractor has no licence from LABC to carry out electrical work.
Don't take my word for it. Phone your LABC tomorrow morning, or check out this:
http://niceic.com/Uploads/File1247.pdf
where is says quite clearly:

....To comply with the law you must notify your local building control office before you begin any work and pay the appropriate fee for them to inspect the work.

 

[pushrod]

check out this:
http://niceic.com/Uploads/File1247.pdf
where is says quite clearly:

Hmmm if you look at your link you will see that the flow chart on page 3 which is quite clearly aimed at the customer says
"Make sure you inform your local building control office before you start any work "

My point right at the start of this thread !!!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It is the person ordering the work who is responsible for notification of any work that requires notification under Building Regulations.
With Part P, as we all should know by now, this can be done by pre-notification, or by employing an electrician who is a member of a self certification scheme.
Building control would only be interested in ensuring that the work complies with the requirements for Part P, not with chasing or investigating the original electrician.
It is obvious that Trading Standards have been involved, although in what capacity is not indicated by the OP.
It could be that the customer has complained that the original electrician stated that they were Part P, or it might be that they are concerned about the quality of work.
In any event, Trading Standards have asked the OP to inspect the installation.
The OP has indicated that the work was not particuarly bad, apparently the readings the OP took differed from those on the EIC. However we do not know what those readings were, and whether the values on the EIC were measured, calculated, adjusted for temperature or perhaps obtained through enquiry.
Trading Standards have then asked the OP to rectify the defects noted in the PIR, again we don't know whether the defects were in the work covered by the EIC, or perhaps defects in the original installation.
It appears that Building Control have accepted a retrospective notification, whether they have accepted the EIC, or the PIR, or perhaps a combination of both we don't know.
I am suprised that Trading Standards asked the OP to rectify the faults, perhaps the original electrician refused for whatever reason, or perhaps they were deemed not be their responsibillity.
Unless Trading Standards can produce evidence that the original electrician was passing themselves off as Part P registered, when they were not. Or that they are Part P registered and failed to notify. There doesn't appear much for them to do.

 

[pushrod]

Good post Spin - a sensible summary. I must admit it has always been my understanding that the customer, not the contractor (if non part p), who was resposible for notification to the labc.

 

[tonys]

Not quite. It still costs to notify as required by part P The joining fee is FREE for approved contractor, don't twist it.


Agreed. Anyone can do electrical work in a domestic dwelling.

Agreed as above. Anyone can work in a domestic dwelling, but it's against the law for the installer to fail to notify LABC under part P. Wrong The approved contractor does it on completeion through their scheme, the non-approved contractor does it in advance direct to their building control department.

The same as an electrician who does not notify LABC under part P full stop. Wrong Against the law.

I disagree. Both are breaking the law because neither carries the correct documentation. The taxi driver has no licence from DVLC to drive, the contractor has no licence from LABC Wrong to carry out electrical work.
Don't take my word for it. Phone your LABC tomorrow morning, or check out this:
http://niceic.com/Uploads/File1247.pdf
where is says quite clearly:

....To comply with the law you must notify your local building control office before you begin any work and pay the appropriate fee for them to inspect the work.

Just going round in a circle.

 

[Apollo]

There are so many if's and But's in this that we just don't know.

As spinlondon has said the person ordering the work is responsible for notifying LABC, what we don't know is if the rewire was part of a bigger job. Normally one LABC notification covers everything happening during a refurb. If it was there would be no need for the Part P to be notified again - COuld have been crossed wires between the sparks and the client - Just a maybe????

Also this is another what if that we don't know - How about the spaky did notify it through his part P scheme, but they failed to notify it????? You just don't know????

 

[LukeD]

Yet more proof of the mess this trade is in. I think if everyone in this country spent a few hours reading this forum they would be shocked at hearing "our" side of the story.

 

[tonys]

Yet more proof of the mess this trade is in. I think if everyone in this country spent a few hours reading this forum they would be shocked at hearing "our" side of the story.

Its in mess mate because of the last Government and won't be undone for at least another 10 years once this recession as cleared out a lot of the unwanted people in our trade, and it will clear them out.

But unfortunately a lot of good people will get caught up in the clear out as well, though being pushed out because the semi skilled will work for less and others will leave because of struggling to find work.

 

[not clever]

I can add to this with my little tale...
I undertook a rewire last year (March/April time), the property had no gas but there was an old unused gas supply pipe in the garage near the DB so I connected 10mm bond as was required.
Tested certed & notified via NICEY all tickety boo & above board.

Fast forward to 2 weeks ago.

Get a call from home owner " Hi there I have a little concern with the electrics, I'm sure its fine but just need to check. We have just had a plumber in to install the new boiler & he said you have not done the rewire as per part P & the regulations"

Oh right & why does he think that.

"You havent fitted an earth to the gas meter & he has had to make a note of it on his paperwork"

So I took a trip there to find a nice shiney meter outside the property some 12 meters away from the old supply pipe & DB, with a new trenched supply from the road.
I showed the customer where I had put the original bond & also showed him on the cert where I'd put a note stating "no gas in property but pipe bonded in garage".
The customer then comes out with "He said I could complain to the NICEIC for you not completing the works correctly"
My next question to him was; Why had the plumber connected the boiler & undertaken the control/stat wiring when he knew (thought he knew) the bond wasnt in place? & why had he issued a MWC stating all ok?

Two week later & they still have not yet paid for the new bond I put in while there.

 

[grantr37]

The Gas Board came in and fitted a new meter for a brand new Gas supply some weeks after you had left a finished job, then the plumber came along, thought he knew about "electrics" and tried to shaft you, thats how reputations get damaged or lost, through easily confused householders being led down the garden path(quite willingly as it suits many of them) by trouble seeking others...The Gas Board should have looked after their own safety bonding but they wont do that.......whats next? you get a phonecall saying "you done a bad job I want it fixed" because a Garage company comes along and builds a nice new concrete Garage, fits a motorised Garage door and bggers off leaving the wires trailing on the floor for the motor and lights....then you get the blame........."well the postman thinks I should complain to the NICEIC,HSE,Council,Trading standards and Building control"......poor old sparky thinks "maybe I'll just do it to get him/her off my back"........theres also thousands of people out there who will get a tradesman to build them a new house off the back of a gentlemans handshake, then refuse to pay, I seen it twice already, once for a new build house and once when a woman had an extension done, when it was finished she turned round and said that she wanted all the outside doors on the house to open OUTWARDS instead of inwards, that was a no-no as it would not pass the council/building standards checks, so she refused to pay him and left him out of pocket by about 40K, it was just her way of not paying and she was not skint by any means, although thats how people hold on to their money...

 

[grantr37]

Remember to take photos of your completed jobs from now on (for household jobs) especially if you are fitting a DB or doing any work in outbuildings...if they ask why just tell them its for inspections of your paperwork that you get now and then...

 

[ukpablo]

gents, this has been one interesting post......................opened my eyes a little and i have definately learned something me thinks!