Query over new circuit installation for Boiler, and Bonding question

[steviec_lj]

Hi folks,

Please do excuse me if this is in the wrong area, it covers a couple of topics so I thought it would be best to pop it in here.

A little over 2 weeks ago, we had a brand spanking new heating system installed, and I cannot fault the lads that came and did it. Everything was tidied up, they moved whatever they needed to, etc, etc. Unfortunately the same couldn't be said for the electricians that eventually came out and connected the
boiler, motorised valves and room stats up. If there were a rogues gallery, I could post a number of pictures up.

The main issues that I currently for see, is the bonding arrangement that they have installed. The main bonding for the water main seems satisfactory, and is connected after the stopcock, within 600mm of where the main enters the building. The have piggybacked from this, through the wall to the oil pipe, to a point on the oil pipe that is some 4mtrs away from where it enters the building and 2mtrs from an external stop tap. They have added bonding to all other pipe work near the boiler (Zone 1 feed, Zone 2 feed, Return, DHW and Mains Cold), externally they've added bonding to the pipe work either side of the metal de-aerater but not the filter, and from what I can tell, this renders the bonding useless?

The other issue that was brought to my attention this morning, when the envelope hit the mat, was that they appear to have done some testing of the circuit that they installed, and the bonding. Without actually testing it to the best of my knowledge. I wonder if anyone would be able to enlighten me as to how this would be possible, or alternatively, possibly linking to an image of the equipment used to test Earth Fault Loop Impedance, RCD operating times and Insulation Resistance.

I won't include any images at the moment, as I should really take their names off of a couple of them before I post them up. But I do believe I will be contacting NICEIC about the work that they have done, and also notifying the Plumbing company of their work.

Any advice, or tips on dealing with something like this would be great.

Steve

 

[GLENNSPARK]

so...
any installation certificate with this?
together with its schedule of inspections & schedule of test/s?

 

[steviec_lj]

Sorry, forgot that.

Received through the post this morning was a, Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate. Which, having just read the top of the piece of paper, quite clearly states, To be used only for minor electrical work which does not include the provision of a new circuit.

This is all that has been received from the electricians.

 

[Plonker 3]

So have they merely come off a existing circuit or have they installed a dedicated circuit from your DB?

 

[steviec_lj]

They have installed a new dedicated circuit for the boiler. Copy of the paperwork is uploading now.

 

[steviec_lj]

Paperwork, received this morning.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

............

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well...from what i can see it looks OK..

- - - Updated - - -

but as #4

 

[GLENNSPARK]

dont assume the limitations box means they havn`t done any testing.....

 

[Rampantchilli]

Your first step, now you've done your Internet research, is to call the electrician and ask him to come back. He must be given the chance to correct anything that is wrong, although what's wrong may not match your own thoughts.

If you consider that he hasn't carried out testing ask him to retest in your presence, the test readings will be substantially the same, but remember, to the best of your knowledge they haven't tested, but then you don't know what a tester looks like so you may have missed it happening.

as for the bonding, we can't comment on it as we haven't seen it, and the electrician on site has made a judgement call, he has done supplementary bonding across the pipe work and main bonded to the oil supply, so on paper sounds good and maybe correct or may not without us visiting and looking for ourselves we can't say.

if you contact the NICEIC they will advise you to talk to the electrician first.

 

[Sharpend]

Have you any pictures of this external bonding?

as for testing they would of had to use between 1-3 testers depending upon which type they had.

 

[steviec_lj]

Surely testers are required to produce such results though? None of which were brought in to the property in the entire 6 hours it took them to install the circuit.

#4 = Its a new, dedicated circuit. Meaning that this certificate is invalid surely?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Surely testers are required to produce such results though? None of which were brought in to the property in the entire 6 hours it took them to install the circuit.

#4 = Its a new, dedicated circuit. Meaning that this certificate is invalid surely?

did you see them filling out the certificate for an electrical installation...?
some testers now store results to be filled out on a laptop...or PC...
as i notice they are all printed values (as opposed to hand written)...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

see i have to be careful now before condemning anyones work/certs they have issued....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

the figures look OK...
according to the cert dielectric strength testing has been carried out, disconnection times for MCBs to BSEN60898 have been met and the CSA of cable used is adequate for the load...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

further more you have chosen to sensor the name and address of the person/company responsible for the work...
this suggests to me that you have been given such details?

 

[steviec_lj]

Image #1: Shows external oil stop tap, bonding appearing through the wall, which connects the mains water to the oil.

Image #2: Shows a little more of the route of the oil feed, to where the rest of the kit has been mounted.

Image #3: Shows the bonding arrangement on the external parts of the boiler system. Top left is the de-aerator, down and round into the filter, and finally at the bottom is a fire valve.

 

[steviec_lj]

Yes, I have the installer details here to hand. I chose to sensor them out of courtesy I suppose, plus I thought it would be a good idea to get a little advice before calling the company back.

To the best of my knowledge, and I was sat in all day while they installed it, there was no testing equipment used, all existing circuits in the property remained live while they installed the boiler circuit. At no point were any RCD tests carried out, the boiler circuit is not connected to the RCD Protected Circuits side of the CU.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

if what concerns you is the extending (or daisychaining) of the bonding conductor from one service to the next....
then its not an issue....as long as the Max. measured value does not go above 0.05 ohm measured from the furthest point (as for any radial)...
the only thing i would perhaps say is if the bonding conductor wasn`t continuous .....that is to say it was cut at each point served...
but as long as good continuity was acheaved....i`d give it a 3 at worst...

 

[Rampantchilli]

Somehow my reply got lost!
so here goes.

The certificate is incorrect for a newly installed circuit, and also new main protective earthing.
the fact it has not been supplementary bonded across the fire valve and filter may be because it doesn't need doing, which is genuinely possible if there is negligible resistance across them.

as for the testing, well as you are sure it hasn't been tested then I'd suggest a phone call to them first, they may be able to provide some proof or come back and show you the tests again.
If after this you still aren't happy then ask a member here to come round, at your cost, to check the work and validate the results on the minow works, if they can be proved to be wrong then a condition report limited to just that circuit could be issued and then you'd have the evidence you need to take this further, if in deed that's what you want to do.

my only concern now, is that the cert says the circuit is Rcd protected yet you state it is on the non Rcd side of the board, which suggests a failure on the part of the electrician

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Somehow my reply got lost!
so here goes.

The certificate is incorrect for a newly installed circuit, and also new main protective earthing.
the fact it has not been supplementary bonded across the fire valve and filter may be because it doesn't need doing, which is genuinely possible if there is negligible resistance across them.

as for the testing, well as you are sure it hasn't been tested then I'd suggest a phone call to them first, they may be able to provide some proof or come back and show you the tests again.
If after this you still aren't happy then ask a member here to come round, at your cost, to check the work and validate the results on the minow works, if they can be proved to be wrong then a condition report limited to just that circuit could be issued and then you'd have the evidence you need to take this further, if in deed that's what you want to do.

my only concern now, is that the cert says the circuit is Rcd protected yet you state it is on the non Rcd side of the board, which suggests a failure on the part of the electrician

yeah...if this is the case...
then the characteristics of the circuit are false...
for earth fault anyway,...

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Looks to me like the main bonding has been adequately installed.although it is preferable for clamps to be within the building rather than external,this may be because of practicalities on site. The only issue appears to be that a minor works cert has been used for a new circuit,and the RCD issue....but are you certain there is a dedicated MCB in the CU for the boiler?....a pic of the cu would be useful.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Looks to me like the main bonding has been adequately installed.although it is preferable for clamps to be within the building rather than external,this may be because of practicalities on site. The only issue appears to be that a minor works cert has been used for a new circuit,and the RCD issue....but are you certain there is a dedicated MCB in the CU for the boiler?....a pic of the cu would be useful.

and if external 951s have been used?

 

[trev]

How do you know for certain that no test instruments were brought into the property? I'm just playing devil's advocate here but unless you were watching them the whole time and knew what test gear looked like (which you indicate) then you wouldn't know for certain. I've lost count of the times I've opened my test gear up and been asked what it was.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

How do you know for certain that no test instruments were brought into the property? I'm just playing devil's advocate here but unless you were watching them the whole time and knew what test gear looked like (which you indicate) then you wouldn't know for certain. I've lost count of the times I've opened my test gear up and been asked what it was.

yep...
my point at #13 trev...

 

[Geoffsd]

I would think you have unnecessary supplementary bonding but it's not possible to tell definitively from here.

 

[steviec_lj]

Picture of the CU, the boiler is 6th MCB from the left, labelled "Water Heater", after the Main Switch.

All tools that were brought into the house were in a small brief case style carry bag, so unless a suitable tester is small enough to fit in a standard jeans pocket without being noticed, I doubt very highly that any testing was done.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

If the circuit in question is really the one you have stated then clearly you have a jackanory cert as they have given RCD test results when there isnt one...(assuming they have not stuck an RCD FCU somewhere).....Get on to NIC complaints,or otherwise their stated test results can easily be verified by another tester,perhaps there is a forum member locally who could verify?

You stated this is a new circuit.....surely the W/Htr circuit was there before?

 

[Mike66]

If the circuit in question is really the one you have stated then clearly you have a jackanory cert as they have given RCD test results when there isnt one...(assuming they have not stuck an RCD FCU somewhere).....get on to NIC complaints.

My thoughts too

My guess is they used existing water heater circuit via a RCD fused spur unit local to the boiler especially if the boiler replaced is a combi & is close to where the old hot water cylinder used to be. Or the boiler has been located next the the existing hot water cylinder. Either way dont see much wrong with that

 

[steviec_lj]

Water Heater Circuit was labelled on the CU, but not installed, as this had previously been removed before we moved in. Heating system has had a complete overhaul. I assume the Water Heater relates to the Immersion Heater that would have been in the hot water cylinder on the old system.

New boiler is located at the opposite end of the house, under the stairs. Originally, it was located just inside the side door, hence the minor building site in one of the pictures through the door. No RCD FCU has been installed, just a basic Switched FCU under the stairs near the new boiler.

I immediately thought the certificate was mickey mouse / jackanory / laurel and hardy when it arrived with RCD tests on it, as it isn't and never looks to have been RCD protected. I have verified that the boiler is on the stated MCB, simply by flicking the MCB into the off position, and watching the boiler neon tell-tale extinguish.

I will be on to NIC in the morning, the company in question seems to get a lot of referrals from the plumbing company, so I will be ringing those too!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Water Heater Circuit was labelled on the CU, but not installed, as this had previously been removed before we moved in. Heating system has had a complete overhaul. I assume the Water Heater relates to the Immersion Heater that would have been in the hot water cylinder on the old system.

New boiler is located at the opposite end of the house, under the stairs. Originally, it was located just inside the side door, hence the minor building site in one of the pictures through the door. No RCD FCU has been installed, just a basic Switched FCU under the stairs near the new boiler.

I immediately thought the certificate was mickey mouse / jackanory / laurel and hardy when it arrived with RCD tests on it, as it isn't and never looks to have been RCD protected. I have verified that the boiler is on the stated MCB, simply by flicking the MCB into the off position, and watching the boiler neon tell-tale extinguish.

I will be on to NIC in the morning, the company in question seems to get a lot of referrals from the plumbing company, so I will be ringing those too!

TBH fictional certs are rife....I've also seen one with rcd trip times with out an rcd in the house,and recently saw one with ring circuit readings for a radial!
That does not excuse it,even more so as this is an approved contractor rather than just a DI.....make sure the NIC take action,follow your complaint up and dont be fobbed off. As an approved contractor ourselves this sort of thing gives us all a bad name,

 

[Mike66]

I think most probably the NICEIC will want you to contact the contractor first to see if it can be sorted out amongst yourselves. If you get no luck via that route I believe they will then step in as arbittraitors.

Not that I am speaking from experience, it's just that, that is how I understand the system works.

As NICEIC contractors they will have to keep a register of any complaints that they receive about the technical aspects of any of their work but not contractural

 

[Mike66]

I forgot to say. If you go on the NICEIC web site it may give you advise there on what you should do