Torque Screwdrivers

[unconditional]

Anyone use one?

Had my NIC audit other day, told to get one, been told in the past too but this guy I think won't take it well if I don't bother.

So, cheapest thing made and kept with the probe tips/H&S policy statement etc for annual inspections?

Or something decent? Whats good and what breaks? Anything with decent priced replacement tips, I find you do get through those PZ2's with all the carved up terminals that the cowboys and drifters leave behind. Y'know the ones actually causing the fires. Which will somehow be magickilly stopped by making non-fire causing skilled people change their tools.

 

[LeeH]

Nope.

 

[Pete999]

Got one never used it, mind you I didn't pay for it

 

[Andy78]

Nope here too.

If any inspector wanted to fail my assessment because of not torquing connections to the manufacturer's recommendations, I would ask them to prove that I hadn't. Lack of ownership of a torque driver does not a loose connection make.

 

[GMES]

I went and bought 2 Armeg sets with all the extra bits, probably £100 per set, waited for the yearly Niceic assesment and then proudly showed them to the inspector who immediately laughed and said they were a waste of money and didn't care for Torque drivers and equally did'nt care if we had them.

 

[LeeH]

I fitted some MCCB's the other day, they had shear bolts on them.

So obviously the bolt heads snapped off at the correct torque.

 

[Andy78]

I went and bought 2 Armeg sets with all the extra bits, probably £100 per set, waited for the yearly Niceic assesment and then proudly showed them to the inspector who immediately laughed and said they were a waste of money and didn't care for Torque drivers and equally did'nt care if we had them.

Best get one in the post to the OP then
We could start a rota where everyone on the forum could post their assessment dates, and the current "holder of the tool", as they would be known, could post it on to the next fella just in time to show the assessor.

 

[rolyberkin]

I have an Armeg set and use it all the time to check all DB connections, also use a Wiha Torque set on occasions but they all do the same thing. Personally I am from the school that I do it by the book and if it goes wrong I can hand on heart say I did, wasn't asked if I had one on my inspection with Stroma. I am always amazed by how tight my torque driver takes the connections, probably tighter than I would naturally do by hand.

 

[GMES]

He's from London Andy, I don't trust them cockneys Only Kidding before all the jellied eel brigade jump on me LOL

 

[GMES]

Anyone use one?

Had my NIC audit other day, told to get one, been told in the past too but this guy I think won't take it well if I don't bother.

So, cheapest thing made and kept with the probe tips/H&S policy statement etc for annual inspections?

Or something decent? Whats good and what breaks? Anything with decent priced replacement tips, I find you do get through those PZ2's with all the carved up terminals that the cowboys and drifters leave behind. Y'know the ones actually causing the fires. Which will somehow be magickilly stopped by making non-fire causing skilled people change their tools.

Got one never used it, mind you I didn't pay for it

I see a Beautiful friendship emerging!! For the right price obviously.

 

[Pete999]

I see a Beautiful friendship emerging!! For the right price obviously.

I will be checking which model I have and checking against ebay prices, so watch this space

 

[Richard Burns]

I believe the Armeg ones have 1/4" blades so you can use any (long) bit in them and the replacement blades are much more reasonably priced than the other makes, however the total cost of the set is always a bit OTT.
Probably the cheapest ones are about £60, I think wiha, but limited blades.

 

[7029 dave]

IMO,we should all be using them.

 

[nunthe wiser]

I bought a Wiha digital one, a few years ago after a melted connection was found in one of my boards. When set to manufacturers instructions I was shocked at how slack the connections can be. I am of the opinion the mcbs etc should be engineered to be stronger instead of to a minimum.

 

[rolyberkin]

I bought a Wiha digital one, a few years ago after a melted connection was found in one of my boards. When set to manufacturers instructions I was shocked at how slack the connections can be. I am of the opinion the mcbs etc should be engineered to be stronger instead of to a minimum.

I am the opposite, find the torqued connections are way tighter than I would do by guestimation.

 

[Andy78]

The problem is that by mandating the use of torque screwdrivers across the board as a solution to loose terminals, standards might actually drop.
A good termination is about good preparation of the cable including dressing, cropping, forming and settling. It's not good enough to say that a torque driver is the solution to poorly installed cables, especially larger cables like domestic tails.

The NICEIC will be insisting on these implements being used as there is a known problem with standards of installation, and they know they have been registering poorly trained and inexperienced installers for years. More covering themselves and playing to the lowest common denominator rather than upholding standards.

 

[Rpa07]

Also they need calibration and a lot of places wouldn't touch them. The cost would be the same amount again to get them set - electricians again getting stuffed from every angle. Is it not just 'F' tight or 'VF' tight as it used to be in my mechanical training all those years ago.
Agree with the 'preparation of the termination' as being the most important.
Liking the idea of posting it around for every assessment. No carving little notches 'I wuZ yer'!

 

[Pat H]

I was looking at them. But the price...

 

[HandySparks]

A good termination is about good preparation of the cable including dressing, cropping, forming and settling. It's not good enough to say that a torque driver is the solution to poorly installed cables, especially larger cables like domestic tails.

Quite. Totally agree.
The other, related, issue is actually getting the conductor in the terminal. I have seen:

Screw had never been tightened onto busbar.

CU busbar on wrong side of cage clamp.

Tail missing hole in Henley block (screw was tight though!).

 

[LeeH]

IMO,we should all be using them.

Why what's wrong with my terminations?

 

[Andy78]

Aye, seen the busbar wrong side of the clamp many a time. Impossible with the Hager MCBs though. They have a barrier behind the clamp that moves forward as the clamp is tightened.

 

[7029 dave]

Why what's wrong with my terminations?

Don't know. I have not seen them.?

 

[The Ghost]

ghost post deleted

 

[Midwest]

I think the concept of using a torque screwdriver is a good idea, and I have one myself. Over tightening or under tightening are both as bad.

However, I see some issues. As someone has already said, annual calibration. Okay to use one when installing a new CU or device, cos your have access to the manufacturers instructions with torque settings, what do you use as reference when checking connections in an existing CU or devices. AND I have the Whia model with slotted/pozidriv bit heads, which don't fit all manufactures cage clamp screw heads. AND even the slimbits won't fit into the neutral terminal holes on most makes of RCBO's I've fitted.

So the concept is flawed, perhaps.

 

[The Ghost]

I have Wiha and Armeg. Bought the Wiha as the Armeg dial fell off and the driver tips kept fracturing. The rep told me I was using the wrong size and that was the problem, still I suppose he had a point with forty years inexperience thats the sort of mistake you would make isnt it. The Wiha is nice comes with normal screwdriver heads so you can replace them cheaply. Armeg, you are stuck with their particular screwdriver heads. I find I have been over tightening for forty years! Still dont trust the manufacturers numbers. For instance I phoned MK and asked what torque to use on their sockets and was told .5! I do not believe that.

 

[rolyberkin]

http://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/monume...tracking url&gclid=CIjIpb6quNACFcyRGwodEQYO_w

Got to be a must in the tool bag to check that you have actually tightened the mcb's onto the busbar!

I have also snapped a armeg tip recently, I was using the wrong size though!

 

[interlude]

I have the 16 piece Draper one, I quite like it although I don't use it too often. Initially I was going to get the Wera set but that only goes up to 3Nm whereas the Draper (and wiha i believe) go up to 5Nm.

 

[GL4Spark]

In my opinion anyone who NEEDS (not wants) torque screwdrivers shouldn't be working on any installation.. every spark should know whats expected with connection tightness, its only the idiots who don't take enough care in their work who leave loose connections or don't screw busbars into MCBs correctly....

 

[Pat H]

But couldn't you say the same about car mechanics? Why torque a head down when bloody tight will do?
Looking at the specs for the various connection torques it suggests too tight can be an issue.

 

[Pete999]

In my opinion anyone who NEEDS (not wants) torque screwdrivers shouldn't be working on any installation.. every spark should know whats expected with connection tightness, its only the idiots who don't take enough care in their work who leave loose connections or don't screw busbars into MCBs correctly....

Yes I agree but remember some guys have only done a 5 week course

 

[telectrix]

then they should not be let loose with a hammer, let alone a torque driver.

 

[Pete999]

then they should not be let loose with a hammer, let alone a torque driver.

NICEIC or other scams say they are OK

 

[telectrix]

they said the titanic was OK.

 

[Pete999]

they said the titanic was OK.

Crikey electrical trainee ship builders what next, sorry.

 

[Pete999]

In my opinion anyone who NEEDS (not wants) torque screwdrivers shouldn't be working on any installation.. every spark should know whats expected with connection tightness, its only the idiots who don't take enough care in their work who leave loose connections or don't screw busbars into MCBs correctly....

What are you trying to say GL45? come on spill

 

[telectrix]

rthink he's trying to say what you and i would say. any spark worth the name don'tneed a bloody torqing screwdriver to get a connection right. next thing is we'll have a talking clock to tell us the time ( oops, BT have had one since the 30's)/

 

[Pete999]

rthink he's trying to say what you and i would say. any spark worth the name don'tneed a bloody torqing screwdriver to get a connection right. next thing is we'll have a talking clock to tell us the time ( oops, BT have had one since the 30's)/

Oh right

 

[sparkdog]

Don't think I would ever trust one of those things.
Might keep one in the tool kit just to prove I have one.

 

[Midwest]

its only the idiots who don't take enough care in their work who leave loose connections or don't screw busbars into MCBs correctly....

Or overtightened terminals

 

[telectrix]

just treat a terminal like a woman. stop when it squeals.

 

[7029 dave]

Or overtightened terminals

Yeah When the screw heads start snapping off, like with meters I exchange and it pee's me off. So I am looking forward to getting mine in the near future. (company supplied of course)

 

[GL4Spark]

What I am trying to say is sparkies have come this far without using them, in my mind connection tightness is something you learn during your training- same goes for not screwing down on insulation or leaving too much exposed copper for example...

 

[Pete999]

I'm sure it's been muted before, IMO the onset of torque screwdrivers as a must have item has come about because of poor working practices among Electricians, the same as AMD3 CUs, I am convinced this is the case, you only have to look at some the Trade pictures posted on this forum, people doing paid work when they are hardly experience enough.

 

[GL4Spark]

Exactly my point pete999. It's a shame really, having to bring about such tools to cover for people's lack of care. Of course I'm not slating anyone who chooses to use one as that's just personal preference... as long as they don't need to rely on it

 

[Midwest]

I don't see an issue at all. With all the terminals inside a CU (or similar switchgear) can't see why you shouldn't use a device that verifies all the terminals are at the correct tightness, not too loose, not to tight rather just reliant on ones wrist action (!).

My only issue is, the device will need regular calibration, otherwise it defeats the whole point and its fine using it on a new install or manufactured products you use regularly, ensuring you have the correct torque settings.

 

[LeeH]

We all know it's limp wristed 5 week wonders and other chancers that's has caused these and the metal enclosures.

There, it's said.

26 days to Xmas by the way!

 

[Midwest]

“Isn't it nice to think that tomorrow is a new day with no mistakes in it yet?” (LM Montgomery)