Wet Locations

[pc1966]

There is no rationale for the 3 meter rule.

I suspect it comes from typical lamp/heater/hair-dryer cable length and how far one might reach while just within a bath.

But I agree it is a bit far considering now such sockets would at least have to have RCD protection (as for outdoor locations).

 

[Cookie]

This is precisely what happens. A large percentage of our newer customers are foreigners who are perplexed that they cannot use their hairdryer in the bathroom. They have spent a lifetime doing it safely in their own countries. Their next step is to buy an extension lead and plug it into the hallsocket.

Thats my point, bath sockets all over the world, including in the litigation driven USA.

 

[Cookie]

Depends how sensitive they are and how strong their heart is etc. Plus the reaction of the shock may make people fall or bang their head. Just a few examples.

The point being I wouldn't want a 13A socket near the bath even if it was fed by an RCD. An RCD is not an excuse to allow potentially dangerous things to be done.

How would a listed hair dryer be dangerous when its double insulated? Having an outlet by the sink and within two feet of the shower is common and no one I know has ever gotten hurt. A typical example:

 

[DPG]

How would a listed hair dryer be dangerous when its double insulated? Having an outlet by the sink and within two feet of the shower is common and no one I know has ever gotten hurt. A typical example:

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Double insulation means it is safe for normal use. It's not a magic bullet, and doesn't mean a device is suitable for damp locations.

Mains powered electric drills have been double insulated for decades, but they shouldn't necessarily be used when it's raining.

Double insulation is not a substitute for a suitable IP rating.

 

[Cookie]

Double insulation means it is safe for normal use. It's not a magic bullet, and doesn't mean a device is suitable for damp locations.

Mains powered electric drills have been double insulated for decades, but they shouldn't necessarily be used when it's raining.

Double insulation is not a substitute for a suitable IP rating.

Are wet hands really going to bring voltage out of the dryer or drill?

 

[DPG]

Are wet hands really going to bring voltage out of the dryer or drill?

If you want to stand in the rain with a drill then feel free. I'll stick with a battery one.

 

[LastManOnline]

All discussions in this thread up to now have been for conventional bathrooms.

701:555.05. "where a prefabricated shower cabinet is installed in a room other than a bath or shower room, any wall switch and any socket outlet shall be at a distance of at least 0.6 mts from the door opening of the shower or cabinet"
This reg is almost certainly "copied and pasted" from the UK. Its intention was to facilitate the likes of budget hotels that don't have the space to conform to the regs. It allows contractors dealing with unconventional domestic installs to assist customers with creative solutions.

 

[LastManOnline]

How would a listed hair dryer be dangerous when its double insulated? Having an outlet by the sink and within two feet of the shower is common and no one I know has ever gotten hurt. A typical example:

You are correct. The situation you describe is perfectly safe........ in America (Europe, Aus., etc) The issue with this scenario in the UK appears to be largely cultural, not electrical. On a previous post on the same subject the general feeling of electricians on the forum was one of not having confidence that the general public would adhere to safety guidelines regarding use of sockets in bathrooms.

 

[pc1966]

On a previous post on the same subject the general feeling of electricians on the forum was one of not having confidence that the general public would adhere to safety guidelines regarding use of sockets in bathrooms.

You have seen who the British public voted in, haven't you?

 

[pc1966]

Are wet hands really going to bring voltage out of the dryer or drill?

I think the fear is they would use a hair drier in the bath or shower.

Yes, that is Darwin-award level stupidity, but it happens...

 

[Cookie]

If you want to stand in the rain with a drill then feel free. I'll stick with a battery one.

Rain vs wet hands is a bit different, but, at the same time, rain water has a resistance of 20,000 ohms.

 

[Cookie]

You are correct. The situation you describe is perfectly safe........ in America (Europe, Aus., etc) The issue with this scenario in the UK appears to be largely cultural, not electrical. On a previous post on the same subject the general feeling of electricians on the forum was one of not having confidence that the general public would adhere to safety guidelines regarding use of sockets in bathrooms.

I'd argue the UK public is among the most educated on earth. If given listed appliances with a note "do no use in shower or bathtub" I'd trust everyone would follow through. At least they do in the US.

 

[nicebutdim]

I'd argue the UK public is among the most educated on earth. If given listed appliances with a note "do no use in shower or bathtub" I'd trust everyone would follow through. At least they do in the US.

Don't underestimate people's capacity for stupidity in the UK.

Google will return plenty of news stories about people in the UK, who managed to electrocute themselves in the bath. Maybe better education would prevent this, but it's fairly common knowledge that using mains powered electrical items in the bath is a very bad idea.

 

[LastManOnline]

I'd argue the UK public is among the most educated on earth. If given listed appliances with a note "do no use in shower or bathtub" I'd trust everyone would follow through. At least they do in the US.

I agree. I,m also a little perplexed as the UK generally tends towards good order and pragmatism

 

[LastManOnline]

Don't underestimate people's capacity for stupidity in the UK.
Maybe better education would prevent this, but it's fairly common knowledge that using mains powered electrical items in the bath is a very bad idea.

That being the case, my real concern would not be the bathroom but rather the hot tub. While a shower is a hygienic occasion the hot tub is a social one, often involving alcohol. If a culture of safety can't be achieved in the bathroom it could well be a major issue in the hot tub down the road

 

[pc1966]

I agree. I,m also a little perplexed as the UK generally tends towards good order and pragmatism

The problem is society is not uniform in attitudes, education, and beliefs. While the UK is reasonably safety conscious in many ways, for example one of the lowest road death rates in Europe, we also have quite a capacity for stupidity as well.

All regulations are a trade off between convenience, cost, and safety. I guess the IET/BSI have generally taken the view that they ought to set standards for electrical safety that are designed to reduce the impact of the more Darwin-inclined members of society.

Some things like hair-dryers are often seen in hotels, but hard-wired in to FCU and not within reach of bath/shower. Having sockets is more of an open-season on more survival-challenged members of our nation.

 

[brianmoooore]

701:555.05. "where a prefabricated shower cabinet is installed in a room other than a bath or shower room, any wall switch and any socket outlet shall be at a distance of at least 0.6 mts from the door opening of the shower or cabinet"
This reg is almost certainly "copied and pasted" from the UK. Its intention was to facilitate the likes of budget hotels that don't have the space to conform to the regs. It allows contractors dealing with unconventional domestic installs to assist customers with creative solutions.

In the UK regs., 15th edition (1981) states NO sockets in bath/shower rooms, but does refer to rooms other than a bathroom, where it says 2.5m min.
16th edition (Amendment 3, 2000, I think) introduces the zone concept for bathrooms, saying no sockets in zones 1,2 and 3, which add up to 3m, so sockets now allowed as long as 3m+ away.
There's a reference to other rooms, but it's still 3m+, and sockets over that distance must be RCD protected.
17th edition (2008); zone 3 has gone, but it still says 3m+ for a room with a bath or shower, with no reference to other rooms at all that I know of, so still 3m+
The advance of time spared me the 18th in detail, but AFAIK, there's no change.

 

[pc1966]

This subject appeared in another thread a bit back about needing a socket in a bathroom for a helper to a disabled person. Some discussion went around the idea of using an IP65 rated socket (as allowed outside in the rain) just out of zone 1, etc, but nothing really satisfactory was reached.

In that case probably a written risk-assessment and justification would be the installers get-out: where the disabled person's need for the power-assisted help and the professional nature and understanding of those involved would be adequate justification for departing from the regs.

But for many it would be far better if certain exemptions and/or guidance was available to deal with the risk of doing so.

 

[LastManOnline]

Rain vs wet hands is a bit different, but, at the same time, rain water has a resistance of 20,000 ohms.

Out of curiosity. 20,000 ohms in what scenario.? Would that be for instance a meter of 20mm plastic pipe full of rainwater, measured end to end?

 

[Avo Mk8]

I think it's that rainwater has a resistivity of 20k ohm cm. (figures vary!)
formula on the web!
I make it about 32 Megohms for the metre of plastic pipe, but no doubt I've made an error there somewhere!

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