old colour cable- is it OK if sleeved brown/blue?

[1Justin]

Hi.

My new (my first!) customer has had his builder in. Builder has been moving cables about and unfortunately re-installing some old colour cable in several places.

Builder wants me to do some further work and take on the electrics, and I'll end up owning the whole installation.

In the nicest way, I made a firm point that he can't use any more old coloured cable and I need to see what he's doing properly from now on. Meanwhile, some of his new install is in old colour cable and he's built it in. He's sensible enough to have routed it properly to reference method, in zones etc, and I can test and prove it's all safe.

An earlier poster said in this forum "As long as its identified correctly at every access/terminal point it's perfectly ok to use". Do I find that point specifically in the regs? It seems common sense to me. I'm not about to tell him to rip cables out, but to start behaving as he should and let me oversee the rest.

This job might end up being a NICEIC sign-off so I don't want to get in a fix because of that.

Justin

 

[SPARTYKUS]

It is sparty, I cant quote the reg number, but it is in there somewhere. But to flip the coin a bit, if you cut into and join to a Blue and Brown under a floor how do you know that the polarity is correct?. you know what the answer is, and you would have to do the same tests with any colour cable then you could sleeve it appropriately.

Cheers...Howard

Fair cop didn't think it through. Cheers SirKit :rolleyes4:

 

[hasel5]

I'm a part P registered (17th ed'n regs and EAL part P). Not signed up yet or inspected for NICEIC/NAPIT/etc, so ideally a couple of nice clean jobs would have been preferable, but I'll not turn away work without very good reason. This builder is sensible enough in otherways to cultivate a worthwhile relationship without antagonizing him, and it could lead to more useful stuff.

1justin please note you cannot be part P registered without being a member of a scheme.

 

[Knobhead]

We were told at school that insurance companies propose to load premiums if a property contains red / black cabling. Any truth in this?

It would be interesting to see documentary evidence other than scare mongering. They would be on very thin ice if they tried it.

 

[1Justin]

OK Hasel5.
Correction: Yes. I am officially not part P because not yet a member.
I am however looking at my certificate for part P exams. Agreed that doesn't make me part P - yet..

I am however no longer an "incompetent person" (Or that's what i like to think )

 

[Des 56]

OK Hasel5.
Correction: Yes. I am officially not part P because not yet a member.
I am however looking at my certificate for part P exams. Agreed that doesn't make me part P - yet..

I am however no longer an "incompetent person" (Or that's what i like to think )

Forgetting this P thing,the important title is electrician,this "competent person" thing only makes me imagine a nut house where the inmates are judged

 

[flukey]

OK Hasel5.
Correction: I am however looking at my certificate for part P exams. )

whats a part p exam??

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Forgetting this P thing,the important title is electrician,this "competent person" thing only makes me imagine a nut house where the inmates are judged

compus mentis ?

 

[1Justin]

OK give me time.. C&G 2395 next month! I've only been at this for a short while (spent too many years designing mobile phones.) Some real work now perhaps.

 

[JONOXNAM]

Hi shortcircuit,

Yes I can do that.

..We have a downstairs room converted to a shower room. Ceiling wiring for downlighters is correctly placed and lamps correctly placed outsize zones. Builder has used old white sheathed black/red. Lamps are not installed yet and the circuit isn't live. - Nor Have I made any tests yet.
.. We have some new lighting on internal corridor area, and in a new porch which again he has wired in old colours.
He has not yet tackled any of the rings or anything in the kitchen.
.. So it's really just lighting at this point.

I said I'd take it on. If I don't then someone else will, but on the proviso that we do things by the book from now on. I looked here for the opinions on the cable sleeving, and if what is said is true (sounds reasonable) then I could remain on good terms with the homeowner and with the builder, and also pass regs.

But I can't claim that I personally pulled through and fixed these cables. Access is adequate to inspect the workmanship. I could fudge things and claim these were existing circuits which got re-used. (Might this be what Joe the electrician would do?). That would not be entirely wrong, nut not entirely truthful either.

For my 2peneth, if building control are involved they will want an EIC, which you cant sign as you did not design and install or oversee the install, so all you can do is the testing for the stuff already done.

I would only do the paperwork and sign it if I could rip out what I needed to be sure cable were run correctly etc even then I would be inspecting the test results closely.

I have come across cables which are of the correct size, they then disappear under floorboards but they have high R2 values, when you rip them out you find they have been cut and smaller csa cable has been chopped in but that was bonding 4mm vs 10mm but that taught me never to trust what I could not see....

Also did you check the main install also to ensure your bonding etc is up to scratch, Ze, max demand etc etc etc... also surge protection if applicable as of Jan 1 etc etc.

You say someone else will do it and I presume you mean get the cash but then if it burns down they will be in the firing line...

 

[CrazyScozzese]

OK give me time.. C&G 2395 next month! I've only been at this for a short while (spent too many years designing mobile phones.) Some real work now perhaps.

Might need to rethink that, I heard that the 2395 was postponed for 6 months at least. If next month then you are talking the good old 2392 or for the die hards the 2391.

 

[PC Electrics]

How about you do a four part EIC for the stuff the builder has already done: you sign the I&T section he signs all the other sections.
After that you issue single part EIC for the work you do.

That way, who dun wot is clearly identified.

 

[1Justin]

Hmm. The course organizer was pretty unsure about the 2395 only a month ago as it was all new to him. But he was advised he could no longer teach the 2391, and needed to tesch 2395 even though he was given no curriculum.

So perhaps it'll change back. - Dates are booked with the college.

 

[PC Electrics]

Expanding a little on Jonos point:
I have actually come across an install where there was a nice piece of 10mm connected to the gas, disappeared into the cavity. There was a nice piece of 10mm at the cu marked as gas bond. So, visually, all was fine.
Until I checked continuity that is. these turned out to be two pieces of 10mm that disappeared into walls and were just cut ends - no continuity. Good job I checked it!!

Never assume - always test - do not trust builders

 

[1Justin]

OK I think you guys are making yourselves clear! (Yes I do appreciate it). I'm visiting the builder in the morning to lay down the rules and make sure he understands.

And Hi Jon.
All noted thanks. I'll keep that in mind when checking it out.

re "you did not design and install or oversee the install, so all you can do is the testing for the stuff already done", True, but that would be the case for any of us working on any existing installation? Yes an EIC will be needed and agreed, I can't technically sign one off yet.

It's that chicken and egg stage for me at the moment. My understanding is that I would be able to write an EIC for it once signed off (if I do use this job for that purpose). Else I could do so after I have sign off from other job(s). There seems to be no rush on this one, customer is quite cool about it, but I would want to leave it safe in the meantime.

I'd want to be sure I had design figures available for reference to the installed cabling for the whole place when it came to NICEIC inspector time. It'd be a useful excersise for me anyhow.

(Oh, he also has a outbuilding circuit, plus a circuit with super-duper hi-fi isolation transformer for the golden eared, with it's own TT spike). (Main install being TN-S)

Hi PC.
Phew, I need to sleep now. "Four part EIC"? I can't respond to that till I figure out what four part means, but I'll be on the case soon..

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Hi.

My new (my first!) customer has had his builder in. Builder has been moving cables about and unfortunately re-installing some old colour cable in several places.

Builder wants me to do some further work and take on the electrics, and I'll end up owning the whole installation.

In the nicest way, I made a firm point that he can't use any more old coloured cable and I need to see what he's doing properly from now on. Meanwhile, some of his new install is in old colour cable and he's built it in. He's sensible enough to have routed it properly to reference method, in zones etc, and I can test and prove it's all safe.

An earlier poster said in this forum "As long as its identified correctly at every access/terminal point it's perfectly ok to use". Do I find that point specifically in the regs? It seems common sense to me. I'm not about to tell him to rip cables out, but to start behaving as he should and let me oversee the rest.

This job might end up being a NICEIC sign-off so I don't want to get in a fix because of that.

Justin

inspect what he`s done by all means....and inform him its on an EICR...nothing more..old colours..give it a (4)..straight away before further investigation....and i would give the lot a (3) in your mind before even starting here.....you be into EVERYTHING this MR has done here....inspect closely...and you test the lot n all....i needn`t remind you the rules as far as the part p is concerned ........

 

[GLENNSPARK]

old colours that is Justin...(4)....but i would give the lot a requires further investigation(3)...and tell him why......you need to investigate the lot here....no more than a PIR/EICR........

 

[GLENNSPARK]

if he dont agree then walk off mate.....

 

[Geordie Spark]

OK give me time.. C&G 2395 next month! I've only been at this for a short while (spent too many years designing mobile phones.) Some real work now perhaps.

You mean those damn things are actually designed ??!!!! :rolleyes4:

 

[sparkdog]

I have a garage installation I was going to use for my second part P assessment.The customer had insisted I use some red/black 2.5 which he had so I ended up doing that.I phoned ELECSA to check and was told it could be used if sleeved but questions would be asked. So I ended up ripping it all out at my own expense and replaced it with brown/blue.

 

[PC Electrics]

I mean the EICs with four signature boxes for different aspects of the job. He can sign the design and installation sections, you the I&T.