School testing.

[aaelectric]

Hi all was wondering how much you would test when doing a five years inspection on the school as there is around 100 circuits would you test all of them or 30% of each fuse board also what about fire alarm & sercurity. Would you test thesecircuits. Would you test all sub mains and insulation test all circuits?
thanks

 

[bigdavs83]

Absolutely everything gets tested. All circuits in the db's, all supplies to the db,s, all supplies to sub mains panels. Everything

 

[UNG]

Whatever is agreed with the client and noted under the extent and limitations section of the EICR

 

[Simlec]

Could you imagine if a child found the defect than was not on your report...

 

[UNG]

Could you imagine if a child found the defect than was not on your report...

Can understand the point you are trying to make but there may be mitigating circumstances as to why the client or the contractor may want to limit the extent of the inspection and test.
Experience and walking round with your eyes open during the inspection may give rise to extending / changing the extent and limitations agreed because of visual observations made

 

[telectrix]

Can understand the point you are trying to make but there may be mitigating circumstances as to why the client or the contractor may want to limit the extent of the inspection and test.
Experience and walking round with your eyes open during the inspection may give rise to extending / changing the extent and limitations agreed because of visual observations made

good post. it's not all pie eating in wigan then?

 

[UNG]

good post. it's not all pie eating in wigan then?

There's nothing wrong with a good pie and mushy peas, did a fire alarm course at Ctec in Wigan and at lunch they served the local cuisine

Anyway I'm an exiled scouser

 

[Simlec]

Can understand the point you are trying to make but there may be mitigating circumstances as to why the client or the contractor may want to limit the extent of the inspection and test.
Experience and walking round with your eyes open during the inspection may give rise to extending / changing the extent and limitations agreed because of visual observations made

I don't know many schools that would not want 100% tested, (but there may be).
The point I'm making is don't cut corners with testing especially in schools, to many drive-by-testers.

 

[telectrix]

There's nothing wrong with a good pie and mushy peas, did a fire alarm course at Ctec in Wigan and at lunch they served the local cuisine

Anyway I'm an exiled scouser

great. we can gang up on geordie.

 

[aaelectric]

Would you say socket outlets in classrooms should have rcd protection if they are in trunking or conduit. Just bevause of children.

 

[Richard Burns]

In a.c. systems, additional protection by means of an RCD in accordance with Regulation 415.1 shall be provided for socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 20 A that are for use by ordinary persons and are intended for general use.

Pretty good description for a school I think.

 

[Simlec]

OP please don't take this the wrong way, but on the face of it you look a little out of your depth.

 

[wozz]

its like a question from the 2391, but people seem to think there are hard and fast rules for different premises.

Who is requesting it? have they specified extent? are there any other interested parties? insurers? as its a school ofsted? local authority?

 

[UNG]

I don't know many schools that would not want 100% tested, (but there may be).
The point I'm making is don't cut corners with testing especially in schools, to many drive-by-testers.

The one thing I don't do is cut corners, took a house to bits once because near the end of an inspection I found something that needed further inspection my boss at the time got a phone call from the customer the following day saying he was going to sue me as his wife who was 7½ months pregnant had been taken to hospital with what was thought to be a miscarriage due to stress because I had told her that the installation didn't comply with the regs and was unsafe and suggested they got the builder to sort out the problems his electrician had left. The customer wanted my boss to send another electrician who would sign it off as compliant my boss declined telling him another electrician would find exactly what I had as he would be told to specifically look at what I had found rather than waste time looking at the bits of the installation that complied with the regs

It's very very rare that you will ever get 100% inspection and test as you would need to verify it against a design checking that space factors in conduit and trunking are correct checking under floor boards are a few that spring to mind how many actually do it and how practical is it to do it. Time and therefore cost is the biggest enemy of a 100% I & T

 

[aaelectric]

OP please don't take this the wrong way, but on the face of it you look a little out of your depth.

Well the way i thought was the children would not be using the sockets but the teachers would. Would they be classed as a skilled person? I have been teating for a while but this os my first school test.

 

[Brightspark2]

Well the way i thought was the children would not be using the sockets but the teachers would. Would they be classed as a skilled person? I have been teating for a while but this os my first school test.

Have a look at the definitions in BS7671...

 

[davesparks]

Well the way i thought was the children would not be using the sockets but the teachers would. Would they be classed as a skilled person? I have been teating for a while but this os my first school test.

Skilled at teaching? One would hope so!

Skilled with electricity? Unlikely!

 

[Guest77]

Absolutely everything gets tested. All circuits in the db's, all supplies to the db,s, all supplies to sub mains panels. Everything

Nonsence, you talk to the customer and agree any limitations first, as the school is occupied you may find it is near impossible to do 100% tests, during the summer holidays maybe.

 

[davesparks]

Common sense says you test schools when they are shut, you'd be daft to do it when they're open.

 

[Guest77]

Common sense says you test schools when they are shut, you'd be daft to do it when they're open.

Yup very true, however, some schools never shut, they are open all year, during holidays they have activities going on, admitedly not all the school is occupied it can be the main hall and a few classrooms, I know of several I have maintained for years which vertually never close, when this is the case I find a chat to the site manager or head teacher about limitations and actual testing requirements to suit their needs is the best way forward, it is what I do dave

 

[shanky887614]

Yup very true, however, some schools never shut, they are open all year, during holidays they have activities going on, admitedly not all the school is occupied it can be the main hall and a few classrooms, I know of several I have maintained for years which vertually never close, when this is the case I find a chat to the site manager or head teacher about limitations and actual testing requirements to suit their needs is the best way forward, it is what I do dave

testing at night is the way to go then as well

 

[davesparks]

I can't believe any school is open 24/7

 

[UNG]

I can't believe any school is open 24/7

I know of 1 in Liverpool that was not far off open 24 / 7 when I did some work there a few years ago

 

[bigdavs83]

Any schools we've tested get a full test. Every circuit and is always done when it's shut whether it be school holidays or night shifts. If they are asking for limitations are they hiding something? As for the old you can't switch that off shout what happens if there's a power failure in the building?

 

[Guest77]

I can't believe any school is open 24/7

Not 24-7 no, I didn't say that, but working during the night turning off distribution boards could be awkward with no lighting couldn't it?

 

[Guest77]

Any schools we've tested get a full test. Every circuit and is always done when it's shut whether it be school holidays or night shifts. If they are asking for limitations are they hiding something? As for the old you can't switch that off shout what happens if there's a power failure in the building?

Ridiculous, they are the customer, they are employing you, they are asking you to do a test of the premises, if they say they do not want something testing then that should be enough information for you, who the hell do you think you are? the sort of guy who goes into someones house and demands they have a full rewire ? jeez, next post I won't be so friendly.

 

[davesparks]

Not 24-7 no, I didn't say that, but working during the night turning off distribution boards could be awkward with no lighting couldn't it?

No more awkward than it is during the day when the boards are on rooms without any windows.
And battery powered LED floods are so cheap these days I don't see the problem.

 

[UNG]

Any schools we've tested get a full test. Every circuit and is always done when it's shut whether it be school holidays or night shifts. If they are asking for limitations are they hiding something? As for the old you can't switch that off shout what happens if there's a power failure in the building?

I could ask what are you expecting to find, do you crawl over every mm of the installation you are doing an inspection and test on looking for problems that you can code as seems to be the motive these days. I'm assuming when you say 100% test this includes removing every accessory to check the terminals are tight etc.

 

[Guest77]

No more awkward than it is during the day when the boards are on rooms without any windows.
And battery powered LED floods are so cheap these days I don't see the problem.

well I suppose if your prepared to work nights and the school can afford the costs then I agree with you, it still comes down to the customer agreeing potential limitations though Dave, please don't start the numptey behaviour, you are better than that.

 

[UNG]

Not 24-7 no, I didn't say that, but working during the night turning off distribution boards could be awkward with no lighting couldn't it?

And have safety and security implications

 

[bigdavs83]

Ha ha nonsense!! We have the schools for a 30 year contract so they are our schools to maintain and we have targets to meet, if we don't we get penalised! Cutting corners gets us nowhere and we lose big contracts. Calm your beans just because you do it one way doesn't mean that applies to all situations. The OP was after advice I therefore stated that in our area of work it's a 100% test

 

[Guest77]

Ha ha nonsense!! We have the schools for a 30 year contract so they are our schools to maintain and we have targets to meet, if we don't we get penalised! Cutting corners gets us nowhere and we lose big contracts. Calm your beans just because you do it one way doesn't mean that applies to all situations. The OP was after advice I therefore stated that in our area of work it's a 100% test

A load of Bollox, the school is the customer, you do not own the building, if they tell you not to test a computer suite you bloody well do as you are told, I am done with you, one word=numpty.

 

[UNG]

Ha ha nonsense!! We have the schools for a 30 year contract so they are our schools to maintain and we have targets to meet, if we don't we get penalised! Cutting corners gets us nowhere and we lose big contracts. Calm your beans just because you do it one way doesn't mean that applies to all situations. The OP was after advice I therefore stated that in our area of work it's a 100% test

So your a PFI contractor having seen and worked in some of the schools built under these contracts I'm not surprised you do 100% test

 

[bigdavs83]

I've stated the deal we have in place and it's actually with the local authority which covers 6 schools and two leisure centres. We test it all as an arse covering exercise. Canny do night shift cos it's dark doesn't quite cut it these days

 

[Guest77]

I've stated the deal we have in place and it's actually with the local authority which covers 6 schools and two leisure centres. We test it all as an arse covering exercise. Canny do night shift cos it's dark doesn't quite cut it these days

Well that is fair enough, if you have a contract which says 100% must be tested then that is what you do, the question was what amount do you test, the answer is whatever the customer wants, not 100% and if they don't like it they are hiding something, jack the lad.

 

[bigdavs83]

UNG the schools are left in a midden for us to take over and trying to get them back on a snag issue is an interesting conversation. It's just not worth not testing it and leaving it for thirty years after the initial install.

 

[davesparks]

well I suppose if your prepared to work nights and the school can afford the costs then I agree with you, it still comes down to the customer agreeing potential limitations though Dave, please don't start the numptey behaviour, you are better than that.

What numpty behaviour?

I have no issue with agreeing limitations with a customer for good reasons. but limitations should be the last resort for dealing with more difficult to test areas not the automatic go-to response for anything the tester can't be bothered to think about a solution to.

I don't get why you say about being prepared to work nights? What is so special about working nights? Apart from being a bit darker outside and there being less distractions around (plus being a damn sight cooler at the moment) what's the difference?
Personally I'm just thankful that I've got a job doing something I enjoy, whatever time of day it is.

 

[bigdavs83]

Agreed MDJ it is whatever the customer wants and that is what the limitations sections are for but as I say in my experience it's a circuit that is left for thirty years after the initial install without a test. Just not worth it mate

 

[davesparks]

Back to the original point of this I would say it has to depend also on the quality of the previous testing.
If you have good test records and certs for all alterations made then you test a sample of the installation and compare it to the previous tests and record which parts were tested. Next time a different sample gets tested and so the process goes on.

If the installation is 50years old with no previous test records and every Tom , dick and Harry have been there altering it then you inspect and test as much as you can.

 

[ipf]

Agreed MDJ it is whatever the customer wants and that is what the limitations sections are for but as I say in my experience it's a circuit that is left for thirty years after the initial install without a test. Just not worth it mate

In a school, the odds are that if a circuit has been installed correctly and NOT interfered with in any way for thirty years, it will be perfectly OK. Thirty years ago it would have been wired to spec in conduit, etc. The problems generally occur due to alteration, addition or interference, sometimes during EICR/PIR's.

 

[bigdavs83]

Davesparks sound advice however can you always trust previous test results? Especially if it's done by some other company of which you know nothing about.

 

[Guest77]

Agreed MDJ it is whatever the customer wants and that is what the limitations sections are for but as I say in my experience it's a circuit that is left for thirty years after the initial install without a test. Just not worth it mate

Fair enough

 

[bigdavs83]

ipf as your post says chances are it will be fine but you're relying on the install guys there and as you say IF a circuit has been installed properly. Personally I'm not relying on them possibly installing it properly.

 

[UNG]

I've stated the deal we have in place and it's actually with the local authority which covers 6 schools and two leisure centres. We test it all as an arse covering exercise. Canny do night shift cos it's dark doesn't quite cut it these days

So is it the PFI contractor that's covering it's arse or just you covering yours

There is no problem with night shifts providing a proper risk assessment is in place

UNG the schools are left in a midden for us to take over and trying to get them back on a snag issue is an interesting conversation. It's just not worth not testing it and leaving it for thirty years after the initial install.

Who said anything about not testing it for 30 years

 

[ipf]

ipf as your post says chances are it will be fine but you're relying on the install guys there and as you say IF a circuit has been installed properly. Personally I'm not relying on them possibly installing it properly.

Aye, but with some visual, checking a few connections and a bit of nouse, you can be pretty sure it falls on the good side....testing at circuit source

 

[bigdavs83]

Need to read the whole posts I was stating in my experience with the schools contract if it is left after every pir as a limitation. Slightly off the OP subject to be fair.

 

[aaelectric]

I would test every circuit but may only open a few sockets switches and lights on eachcircuit . I wouldnt open every socket and light fitting if the viewed ones looked good. As long as test are ok!
thanks guys

 

[shanky887614]

I would test every circuit but may only open a few sockets switches and lights on eachcircuit . I wouldnt open every socket and light fitting if the viewed ones looked good. As long as test are ok!
thanks guys

but do you test every socket?

 

[UNG]

I would test every circuit but may only open a few sockets switches and lights on eachcircuit . I wouldnt open every socket and light fitting if the viewed ones looked good. As long as test are ok!
thanks guys

So you are applying a limitation then

 

[shanky887614]

So you are applying a limitation then

then he is not testing 100% as he agreed with client.

forgive me if Im wrong but doesnt an eicr also state a function test?

How can you perform a function test if you dont check all spckets and it takes no extra time to do r1+r2 then zs at each socket.

(use plug in tester rather than taking fronts off)