Discuss Are lorry drivers (or lack of) having an effect on any of your regular supplies? in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

nicebutdim

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The EU should definitely be able to handle this issue better than the UK, but it remains heavily reliant on cheap labour from poorer member states. Unless the population of those poorer member states are content to continue providing cheap labour to their wealthy neighbours, then the EU has a considerable problem coming in the future.

What the UK is experiencing is a long overdue correction of its labour market, which has been seriously compounded by the unforeseen effects of a pandemic and the unprecidented measures taken to minimise the immediate economic impact of that pandemic.

Ultimately we are where we are. Things could be better and they could also be a whole lot worse. I'd expected a much greater immediate impact after Brexit, so find myself generally content with how matters are progressing. There'll be more bumps in the future, just as there would have been if we'd remained a member of the EU.
 
nicebutdim

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Here's an interesting perspective from 2018, which addressed the issue of driver shortages in the UK and EU at that time, but obviously its predictions didn't take account of Covid...

 
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Not sure where you get spare drivers from? 400k drivers short divided by 27 is slightly less than 100k. They’re still short of drivers but nowhere near as much as the UK.
I think you need to recheck your maths if they need 400k drivers then 400,000 / 27 = 14,815 rounding it up so how do you get slightly less than 100k

The only reason the UK is short of drivers is because the employers hae been treating them as a low value commodity for many years, I know quite a few people who have a class 1 HGV licence who stopped driving trucks because employers kept on dropping the rates even the ADR rates went down to as little as 10p / hr extra for hauling hazardous goods

Dig deeper for your news and facts
 
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Here's an interesting perspective from 2018, which addressed the issue of driver shortages in the UK and EU at that time, but obviously its predictions didn't take account of Covid...

As early as 2008 they were concerned about a driver shortage, at the time the driver CPC was being introduced the average age of a HGV driver was 56 just over 10 years on that is now 55 - 57 depending on what sources you look at
 
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The EU should definitely be able to handle this issue better than the UK, but it remains heavily reliant on cheap labour from poorer member states. Unless the population of those poorer member states are content to continue providing cheap labour to their wealthy neighbours, then the EU has a considerable problem coming in the future.

What the UK is experiencing is a long overdue correction of its labour market, which has been seriously compounded by the unforeseen effects of a pandemic and the unprecidented measures taken to minimise the immediate economic impact of that pandemic.

Ultimately we are where we are. Things could be better and they could also be a whole lot worse. I'd expected a much greater immediate impact after Brexit, so find myself generally content with how matters are progressing. There'll be more bumps in the future, just as there would have been if we'd remained a member of the EU.
And that is part of the cause, cheap drivers have depressed the rates in the UK and driven too many drivers away from the industry
 
DPG

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So in the EU they are having supply issues and panic buying at fuel pumps? Exactly the same issues as here.

You seem to only read the information that fits in with your opinions
, as far as I can see anyway.
 
FatAlan

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The EU should definitely be able to handle this issue better than the UK, but it remains heavily reliant on cheap labour from poorer member states. Unless the population of those poorer member states are content to continue providing cheap labour to their wealthy neighbours, then the EU has a considerable problem coming in the future.

What the UK is experiencing is a long overdue correction of its labour market, which has been seriously compounded by the unforeseen effects of a pandemic and the unprecidented measures taken to minimise the immediate economic impact of that pandemic.

Ultimately we are where we are. Things could be better and they could also be a whole lot worse. I'd expected a much greater immediate impact after Brexit, so find myself generally content with how matters are progressing. There'll be more bumps in the future, just as there would have been if we'd remained a member of the EU.
I think the pandemic has acted like a catalyst for the effects of brexit, certainly in respect of labour. Not too sure about cheap labour though. A lot of the Eastern European lads that went back are probably staying put now due to levelling up in Europe and them being able to earn more back home. Certainly the skilled trades guys may be difficult to get back. They were on good standard rates and I suspect were very switched on and working to a plan in respect of hard graft for a few years before returning home.Will be interesting to see what happens here with wages. Public sector is in dire straights already with 10 years of austerity and pay freezes. The private sector will have to pay more for labour which may cause a further staff shortage in public sector. A 23 year old police officer may well be thinking about getting a grant to train as an HGV driver, a couple of months training and double the wages.
 
littlespark

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Increasing the number of hgv drivers is not an overnight solution.
As I said before, my dad was a driver, from years ago… Training includes having 2 years experience driving a rigid body before going for an articulated.

As for the army helping out…. I heard that since they took over driving ambulances over in Glasgow they’ve managed to crash 2 so far.
 
DPG

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Increasing the number of hgv drivers is not an overnight solution.
As I said before, my dad was a driver, from years ago… Training includes having 2 years experience driving a rigid body before going for an articulated.

As for the army helping out…. I heard that since they took over driving ambulances over in Glasgow they’ve managed to crash 2 so far.

Don't think that's correct - a mate of mine trained to be an HGV driver last year and went straight on to artics.
 
nicebutdim

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I think the pandemic has acted like a catalyst for the effects of brexit, certainly in respect of labour. Not too sure about cheap labour though. A lot of the Eastern European lads that went back are probably staying put now due to levelling up in Europe and them being able to earn more back home. Certainly the skilled trades guys may be difficult to get back. They were on good standard rates and I suspect were very switched on and working to a plan in respect of hard graft for a few years before returning home.Will be interesting to see what happens here with wages. Public sector is in dire straights already with 10 years of austerity and pay freezes. The private sector will have to pay more for labour which may cause a further staff shortage in public sector. A 23 year old police officer may well be thinking about getting a grant to train as an HGV driver, a couple of months training and double the wages.

This rather oversimplifies the issue.

Most Eastern Europeans who settled in the UK have remained here and have the same opportunities as everyone else on these islands, while many of those who came for seasonal or temporary work will have returned home or sought work in other parts of the EU. Many of the former have raised families for whom the UK is the only home they've ever known.

The issue of cheap labour became quite comical during the great Brexit debate of 2016-2020 as opponents of Brexit were adament that no immigrants were employed on the basis of low priced labour, yet went on to lament the increasing cost of labour as short term workers left the UK - basically undermining their own prior arguments.

I also don't agree about Public sector wages. It is without doubt that pay freezes will certainly have been felt by these workers and will have problems, but this was more a levelling of the playing field as Public Sector workers had previously enjoyed much better average earnings than their Private Sector counterparts - they still enjoy better benefits and pensions. The main issue with the UK Public Sector is not with wages for the average employee, though, but with the sheer number of people employed in Public Sector roles and the overall burden on our economy. Many in the Public Sector are vital to the functioning of our society, but there have been a plethora of unnecessary management positions and new roles created, over the last number of decades, that are totally unnecessary. As a former policeman, you'll be aware of how much bureaucracy there is impeding those at the coal face.

As for the pandemic? Brexit was never going to be a walk in the park, but the last 18 months have thrown up many challenges around the globe, but in the UK they are often used as arguments against leaving the EU. At this stage it is long since time that people accepted what the electorate voted for, pulled themselves out of the past and set about doing something positive for the next generations.
 
Zerax

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So what benefits do we have due to Brexit? I hear there’s a shortage of child minders now and the government is looking to relax vetting your get more women back to work. What price the safety of your child? Fruit rotting in fields, no staff in slaughter houses so farmers destroying livestock. Fishing industry being bailed out by government £300m a year. Haven’t seen any benefits yet.
We spent over 40 years getting more and more intertwined with the political club called the EU... we won't be getting totally out of it in 10 months !! It will several years for the full benefits to be realised. At present most of the world is adjusting to life after the Covid pandemic... which includes the UK as well as the EU. Many of the problems that you see are due to this and NOT Brexit, but I understand that you won't be able to see that.

Can I suggest that you look at the whole question of the benefits of leaving the EU in about 5 years time... after the labour market has settled down... the effects of Covid will be a distant memory and when a few more countries will have left the EU ??
 
nicebutdim

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Can I suggest that you look at the whole question of the benefits of leaving the EU in about 5 years time... after the labour market has settled down... the effects of Covid will be a distant memory and when a few more countries will have left the EU ??

Hopefully this never happens. While I was (and remain) a strong advocate of Brexit, I honestly believe the EU is essential for the continued functioning of mainland Europe.
 
FatAlan

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Increasing the number of hgv drivers is not an overnight solution.
As I said before, my dad was a driver, from years ago… Training includes having 2 years experience driving a rigid body before going for an articulated.

As for the army helping out…. I heard that since they took over driving ambulances over in Glasgow they’ve managed to crash 2 so far.
Army, police, fire & ambulance are all good at crashing their vehicles whether helping each other out or not.
A2DD80C4-CC64-4B69-9A96-518C7AD47C37.jpeg
 
FatAlan

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Late 80,s ambulance dispute. Army worked with police out of Brentford Police Station in West London. One of the army girls is as driving a big army armoured ambulance. Car pulled out from a side turning in front of her and she just drove over the front of the car flattening the bonnet. We also had a big old American estate style ambulance. That was promptly renamed Ecto 1. 😜
 
mattg4321

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So what benefits do we have due to Brexit? I hear there’s a shortage of child minders now and the government is looking to relax vetting your get more women back to work. What price the safety of your child? Fruit rotting in fields, no staff in slaughter houses so farmers destroying livestock. Fishing industry being bailed out by government £300m a year. Haven’t seen any benefits yet.

What about wages going up? Prime example being HGV drivers finally getting some appreciation.

Too many people doing ‘nothing jobs’ in this country where nothing is produced. When you really boil it down most of these people are a drain in a crisis
 
pirate

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Poor, deluded souls...i feel so sorry for you...here in Scotland we have Queen Nicola sorting everything, and those of you in the South are so jealous that all you can do is mock us!
and quite right too!
~this is a national problem...HGV drivers deserve a good wage...
nurses deserve a good wage...
so many sectors deserve more, but we have NO MONEY!
Printing money for Covid is ok...but why not print some more? We've done it for decades!
Furlough? We printed the money for that...nobody gave me any money though
I wanted to work but had none, so no furlough...
Now we have folks on furlough who don't want to go back to work because staying at home on 80% wages is far better than working...
Lorry drivers are essential workers
Plumbers are essential workers
Electricians are essential workers
and the list goes on and on...so many workers are essential for health, safety, everything we hold dear or deem essential to the way we live our lives...
but we reward those in the higher echelons who have stood out for no real merit, and ignore those who genuinely keep society viable...
What we need to take from Covid is a lesson about what and who matters, all the time. And learn the lessons.
Thank you for reading this.
 
Zerax

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Hopefully this never happens. While I was (and remain) a strong advocate of Brexit, I honestly believe the EU is essential for the continued functioning of mainland Europe.
Agreed... we need a healthy and prosperous EU to sell our goods and services to... (the EU are to hell bent on revenge to realise that it's in their interest for the UK to also be prosperous).

One of the few reasons for us to stay in the EU was that we provided a stabilising force against the EU federalists.
 
FatAlan

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What about wages going up? Prime example being HGV drivers finally getting some appreciation.

Too many people doing ‘nothing jobs’ in this country where nothing is produced. When you really boil it down most of these people are a drain in a crisis
No point in wages going up if prices go up at the same time. What’s a nothing job? Do you mean, the public sector where basically there’s no profit in their expertise?
I’m sure you can come up with something better than that? 🤔😜
 
telectrix

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No point in wages going up if prices go up at the same time. What’s a nothing job? Do you mean, the public sector where basically there’s no profit in their expertise?
I’m sure you can come up with something better than that? 🤔😜
you could sack 50% of civil servants. redistribute their duties to the remaining 50%, and these latter would still have a cushy life.
 
FatAlan

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So which civil servants have a cushy life then Tel? All I see is under investment, antiquated IT systems, lack of staff and those that are left are trying to manage mpossible workloads made even worse by increased bureaucracy imposed by politicians due to the latest media outcry over the latest high profile public service cock up most likely caused by lack of resources. Still, work a 12 hr shirt in A&E sounds pretty cushy.
 
telectrix

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by civil servants, i don't mean public sector workers like nurses. i mean the suited shiny arsed pencil necks that turn every government decision into a 2 year nightmare of mountains of paper and costs, when a tick on a page is all that's required.
 
nicebutdim

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No point in wages going up if prices go up at the same time. What’s a nothing job? Do you mean, the public sector where basically there’s no profit in their expertise?
I’m sure you can come up with something better than that? 🤔😜

I didn't see that comment as being aimed specifically at the public sector, but at the huge number of jobs out there that do precisely nothing for society.

While many service industries are vital, there are many others that simply exist as a means of tapping off money. This applies equally to public and private sectors.
 
FatAlan

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by civil servants, i don't mean public sector workers like nurses. i mean the suited shiny arsed pencil necks that turn every government decision into a 2 year nightmare of mountains of paper and costs, when a tick on a page is all that's required.
Ok Tel, I’ll give you that one 👍I think I read somewhere that the Tories had promised to cut down the number of shiny suited brigade but due to COVID thousands more had been taken on in London. That on top of the lucrative contracts they’ve been handing out to their management consultant mates.
 
mattg4321

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Too many consultants and sales staff that don’t actually produce something. They just try and manipulate others to part with their money usually. I wasn’t really aiming my previous comment exclusively at the public sector although they are included.

The economy should be set up to pay the people who are useful to society more than the pittance they’ve become used to and some of the people at the middle/top should get a smaller slice of the pie.

HGV drivers who are away from home for 70/80 hours a week should be getting paid ‘Waitrose money’ ie. 50k plus a year. Funny how they don’t have a driver shortage now. Care home workers should be paid more along with most frontline staff in the nhs. The consultants who advise the nhs on how to spend their money should be shot at dawn!! Ask any of the relevant staff the same questions and you will get more sensible answers, for free.


It appears some people want to avoid wage inflation for the people mentioned above so it keeps prices cheap for everyone else. They also don’t mind that we harvest the best of the workers from poorer countries to bring over here and work for peanuts. Never mind the fact that the countries they leave are then struggling with a shrinking and ageing population at the same time. Never mind that though as long as the 6 and 7 figure bonuses keep getting paid every year.
 
FatAlan

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Too many consultants and sales staff that don’t actually produce something. They just try and manipulate others to part with their money usually. I wasn’t really aiming my previous comment exclusively at the public sector although they are included.

The economy should be set up to pay the people who are useful to society more than the pittance they’ve become used to and some of the people at the middle/top should get a smaller slice of the pie.

HGV drivers who are away from home for 70/80 hours a week should be getting paid ‘Waitrose money’ ie. 50k plus a year. Funny how they don’t have a driver shortage now. Care home workers should be paid more along with most frontline staff in the nhs. The consultants who advise the nhs on how to spend their money should be shot at dawn!! Ask any of the relevant staff the same questions and you will get more sensible answers, for free.


It appears some people want to avoid wage inflation for the people mentioned above so it keeps prices cheap for everyone else. They also don’t mind that we harvest the best of the workers from poorer countries to bring over here and work for peanuts. Never mind the fact that the countries they leave are then struggling with a shrinking and ageing population at the same time. Never mind that though as long as the 6 and 7 figure bonuses keep getting paid every year.
Agree with a lot of what you say. I do believe that management consultants have grown fat on ripping off the public sector. As for sales, that’s quite a niche job and would argue that a good sales team is essential to any business. Put it this way, none running a business would have a business with some sort of sales input.
The government has just raised NI to raise extra funds for the NHS. Funny how they’re not looking at extra taxes on the high earners and those who salt away their millions off shore like the Rees Moggs of this world.
 
nicebutdim

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Agree with a lot of what you say. I do believe that management consultants have grown fat on ripping off the public sector. As for sales, that’s quite a niche job and would argue that a good sales team is essential to any business. Put it this way, none running a business would have a business with some sort of sales input.
The government has just raised NI to raise extra funds for the NHS. Funny how they’re not looking at extra taxes on the high earners and those who salt away their millions off shore like the Rees Moggs of this world.

I get your point, but think about the motor trade as an example. From a customer's perspective there are three main components to it: Sales, service and parts. Biggest bucks go to sales, service is next and parts a big drop down to very low wages. This is simply because car sales generate most income and parts generally the least - some garages almost resent having to operate a parts department, despite the fact it is essentail to the efficient running of their service department and could (if funded and managed properly) provide a reasonable income stream in itself.

Service and parts staff are essential - while salespeople encourage the public to part with their cash, they don't actually contribute anything useful. They sell aspiration and, while it's definitely a skill (and not a job I'd want to do), it's not a job that could be considered essential. If manufacturers made better quality cars, they'd sell themselves and salespeople would be redundant.

As for tax increases... rich people are, for the most part, happy to pay their taxes. What they aren't is happy to be treated as a cash cow, simply because they worked hard or were clever/lucky. Squeeze them too much and they won't take it - no different to anyone else, in that regard
 
DPG

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Ok Tel, I’ll give you that one 👍I think I read somewhere that the Tories had promised to cut down the number of shiny suited brigade but due to COVID thousands more had been taken on in London. That on top of the lucrative contracts they’ve been handing out to their management consultant mates.

I'm not sure why you have this blinkered view of only the Tories doing things like this. You need to think back to the many years of the Blair labour government.

I suspect you only listen to the media sources that publish things that match your political views?
 
mattg4321

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Everyone knows that Blair was a ‘red Tory’.

Labour haven’t been looking out for their supposed core voter (the labouring person), the normal working person, for decades now.

The unions got too powerful at one time which killed old Labour and they switched to identity politics to try and compete with the Tories. Most people in this country want nothing to do with identity politics. They just want to be paid and taxed fairly and have good public services. They don’t care if the public service is full of balding white males or transsexual Muslims, they just want the job done properly.

Labour have missed their opportunity to pivot back to being a party for the working man or woman, they are full of lunatics now. We desperately need a proper opposition to the Tories in this country.
 
DPG

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Everyone knows that Blair was a ‘red Tory’.

Labour haven’t been looking out for their supposed core voter (the labouring person), the normal working person, for decades now.

The unions got too powerful at one time which killed old Labour and they switched to identity politics to try and compete with the Tories. Most people in this country want nothing to do with identity politics. They just want to be paid and taxed fairly and have good public services. They don’t care if the public service is full of balding white males or transsexual Muslims, they just want the job done properly.

Labour have missed their opportunity to pivot back to being a party for the working man or woman, they are full of lunatics now. We desperately need a proper opposition to the Tories in this country.

That's the problem - if Labour don't behave how you want then they 'aren't proper labour'. It's like when people realised how much Neil Kinnock was earning as an MEP - ah, was never proper labour him.

And the 1970s?

Mmm, so - when exactly was the 'good labour' then? I'm struggling to see it to be honest
 

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