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Discuss Best type of lighting in stables in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

bet with OP's disregard for rules and regulations, he's got Shergar hidden away in them stables. :eek:
 
You cannot assume that because stables aren't mentioned that they are included under some other heading. I get the point about livestock protection, but we don't have livestock only horses. The planning officer said if the building is not normally occupied, as in a dwelling, office, factory etc then BS7671 doesn't apply. Sorry to keep repeating myself, it is not commercial, not agricultural and we don't keep livestock.
 
Crazy argument. Stable next to a house needs to comply with regs, animals on a farm same, but your stable doesn't need to comply with any wiring regs at all. Yep, right.
So by your argument you could wire it all in bell wire and you are not contravening any regulations?
 
Google 'are horses livestock'. I have just come off the phone to my local planning officer. He has confirmed if the stable is on its own land, on it's own supply, and is not normally occupied then BS7671 does not apply.
 
Sorry, meant building control, but as you know more than them then it doesn't make much difference.
 
Oh dear, seems like a little bit of knowledge and all that. The stable is in a field. No house on the land. No one lives in the stable, people that is, and it is not regularly occupied. It is therefore not a dwelling. BS7671 applies to dwellings, it says so clearly. If you think I am wrong, I will give you the name and address of my local council building control officer and you can correct him, as he confirmed the fact that BS7671 does not apply, and test and certificate was not required.

I think your local council building control officer is confusing BS7671 with Part P
 
BS7671 applies to all electrical installations subject to the exceptions given by any78
have a read of section 705. i believe horses come under the general scope of livestock, even if i prefer them in a plate with chips, mushrooms and a touch of garlic.

Apprentice has my BYB, I assume section 705 is locations containing livestock?
 
How does the saying go again? You can lead a horse to water..
Screenshot_20170927-173733.jpg
Screenshot_20170927-173708.jpg
 
Top use of logic here.

A forum full of currently practising electrical professionals say one thing. Building control officer who has no specialist electrical knowledge says another. Side with the building control officer.

Argue that horses are not livestock and therefore not subject to measures designed to protect livestock. This logic assumes that people who write definitions have informed the laws of physics to alter themselves to suit the definition.

Both of these viewpoints are only taken because it suits the OP better.

Lol, flogging a dead horse is right.
 
Wait until the DNO want certification before making their connection.

BS 7671 "Requirements for Electrical Installations. IET Wiring Regulations", I think the name gives it away somewhat...

And I've just realised the kids have eaten all the popcorn... :mad:
 
Dno have already made connection, just waiting for supplier to fit meter. Look, if stables aren't mentioned as being covered, and horses are defined as not being livestock, the building control say I can wire it without it being covered by part p and the 17th edition, then yes, I will go with it. Why should I pay a lot of money Isn't need to?
 
If you are an electrician of 50 years,like quite a few of us on here, your view that testing an installation is not required ( because only nags kip there)
It is not only unique,it is silly

I think your views need to mature in order to match your likely age
 
Dno have already made connection, just waiting for supplier to fit meter. Look, if stables aren't mentioned as being covered, and horses are defined as not being livestock, the building control say I can wire it without it being covered by part p and the 17th edition, then yes, I will go with it. Why should I pay a lot of money Isn't need to?

Best you get that clarified in writing .......... are you expecting any form of sign off by LABC?
 
Being as this thread is now getting ridiculous I am going to take it off topic by reciting a little incident that happened to me while walking the dog. This very well to-do lady in a big 4 x 4 and tweed jacket stopped and leaned out the window and said, "excuse me, could tell me where osshow is?" "Sorry" says I, where? "osshow" she says, then repeats "y'know, osshow". "I'm sorry luv, I don't think there is anywhere round here called osshow" "No, osshow, she says, osshow!"
"Oh, I replied, you mean the Horse show?"
"Yes, osshow! What did you think I meant??"
Derbyshire folk eh......
 
It will be installed and tested to the latest regs. If you accept thet BS7671 isn't a legal requirement on it's own, but is accepted as the required standard for the building regulations part P, then if the Building Regs don't require it for a particular building then surely BS7671 doesn't apply. If you look at the Building Regs
The Building Regulations 2010

You are here:
· 2010 No. 2214
· SCHEDULE 2
· CLASS 3

Exemptions from building regulations

The building regulations part p states that buildings in Class 2 (Buildings not frequented by people) and Class 3 (Agricultural buildings) are exempt from part p.

Buildings not frequented by people


1. Subject to paragraph 2, a detached building—

(a)into which people do not normally go; or

2. A building used, subject to paragraph 3, for agriculture, or a building principally for the keeping of animals, provided in each case that—

(a)no part of the building is used as a dwelling;

A stable is for the housing of animals, it is not a dwelling.

Also definition of livestock and agriculture

The Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1968 (1968 Ch 34)

The definition of livestock given in Section 8(1) of the Act applies to animals being kept for the production of food, wool, skin or fur on agricultural land.

Agricultural land is defined in Section 8(1) as land used for the purpose of an agricultural trade or business

Also if you read the Building Regulations Part P, Section 2, 'Scope' 2.2
says what buildings are exempt.

From IET:
Q3: To what types of electrical work does Part P apply?
  • In or attached to a dwelling
  • In the common parts of buildings serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts
  • In a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling, and
  • In a garden or in or on land associate with a building where the electricity supply is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling
The term dwelling includes houses, maisonettes and flats. It also applies to electrical installations in business premises that share an electricity supply with dwellings, such as shops and public houses with a flat above.

The common parts of buildings includes access areas in blocks of flats such as hallways and shared amenities in blocks of flats such as laundries and gymnasiums.

Part P applies to electrical installations located in outbuildings such as detached garages, sheds and greenhouses.

Part P applies to parts of electrical installations located on land around dwellings such as garden lighting.

I rest my case.
 
It will be installed and tested to the latest regs. If you accept thet BS7671 isn't a legal requirement on it's own, but is accepted as the required standard for the building regulations part P, then if the Building Regs don't require it for a particular building then surely BS7671 doesn't apply. If you look at the Building Regs
The Building Regulations 2010

You are here:
· 2010 No. 2214
· SCHEDULE 2
· CLASS 3

Exemptions from building regulations

The building regulations part p states that buildings in Class 2 (Buildings not frequented by people) and Class 3 (Agricultural buildings) are exempt from part p.

Buildings not frequented by people


1. Subject to paragraph 2, a detached building—

(a)into which people do not normally go; or

2. A building used, subject to paragraph 3, for agriculture, or a building principally for the keeping of animals, provided in each case that—

(a)no part of the building is used as a dwelling;

A stable is for the housing of animals, it is not a dwelling.

Also definition of livestock and agriculture

The Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1968 (1968 Ch 34)

The definition of livestock given in Section 8(1) of the Act applies to animals being kept for the production of food, wool, skin or fur on agricultural land.

Agricultural land is defined in Section 8(1) as land used for the purpose of an agricultural trade or business

Also if you read the Building Regulations Part P, Section 2, 'Scope' 2.2
says what buildings are exempt.

From IET:
Q3: To what types of electrical work does Part P apply?
  • In or attached to a dwelling
  • In the common parts of buildings serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts
  • In a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling, and
  • In a garden or in or on land associate with a building where the electricity supply is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling
The term dwelling includes houses, maisonettes and flats. It also applies to electrical installations in business premises that share an electricity supply with dwellings, such as shops and public houses with a flat above.

The common parts of buildings includes access areas in blocks of flats such as hallways and shared amenities in blocks of flats such as laundries and gymnasiums.

Part P applies to electrical installations located in outbuildings such as detached garages, sheds and greenhouses.

Part P applies to parts of electrical installations located on land around dwellings such as garden lighting.

I rest my case.

Best you review your sources ........... as I think you'll conclude that all wiring in the UK except as listed earlier in this thread should be installed to BS 7671

Part P and BS 7671 are 2 completely different things

You're not a spark are you?
 
Building regulations and BS7671 are quite separate. The requirements for BS7671 do not depend upon the application of building regulations to a situation. How you don't know that after your time in the game I don't know.
 
Again you are confusing part P and the wiring regs. The wiring regs apply to all installs, whether farming, domestic, commercial, etc.

You have already admitted that your initial argument about it only applying to residences was wrong. You are digging yourself deeper the more you rabbit on.
 
Exactly. Part p is a legal requirement, bs7671 isn't. Part p doesn't cover the building concerned. End of story. But at the end of the day it is safe, installed and tested by an electrician.
 
Exactly. Part p is a legal requirement, bs7671 isn't. Part p doesn't cover the building concerned. End of story. But at the end of the day it is safe, installed and tested by an electrician.

So your argument now is that it's because BS7671 isn't a legal requirement. You are presumably then saying that it isn't a requirement for domestic installs as well? Either you are just trolling for an argument or you really have misunderstood the system.

Every wiring installation needs testing and certifying, it may or may not however need notifying to building control as part of the building regs.
 
Yes, let's get straight. I'll ignore the insults, bit childish. The building is a stable. It is on it's own in a field. It will have it's own supply. It houses animals. Because of this it does not come under building control regs. Therefore Part p, and yes I do know the difference between them is not necessary as they are not a legal requirement, they are a Standard. Having said that the installation will be to the same standard as required by the regs, and the installation will be properly tested. But I don't need it to be signed off, and I am sure there will be no problem getting it metered. Horses are NOT livestock. And a live horse is a lot more expensive than a dead one.
 
It will be installed and tested to the latest regs.

Which regulations are you referring to as the latest regs?
The latest version of the IEE wiring regulations is BS7671:2008 'IET wiring regulations, Seventeenth Edition'

So how can you say that you will be installing and testing to the latest regs, when the latest regs are the very standard which you are arguing doesn't apply?
 
It will be installed and tested to the latest regs.

Which regulations are you referring to as the latest regs?
The latest version of the IEE wiring regulations is BS7671:2008 'IET wiring regulations, Seventeenth Edition'

So how can you say that you will be installing and testing to the latest regs, when the latest regs are the very standard which you are arguing doesn't apply?
 
BS7671 is to be used to ensure you remain compliant with EAWR 1989. If you chose not to install to BS7671 and cannot justify why you haven't done so then you are in breach of EAWR 1989.

A lot of members on here have given you very sound advice and guidance, it's your choice if you chose to accept or ignore this.

You may have been within the trade for 50 years with a DNO but you show a lot of ignorance with regards to the legal requirements of the end user and those that install and maintain their installations.

BCO is correct that this falls outside the scope of Part P however the BCO is incorrect that it falls outside the scope of BS7671.
 
Why does everyone assume the installation is not safe? I keep saying it will be to the standards required by the 17th edition, but as it is a standard and not a law it doesn't have to be carried out by a registered electrician. Why does Electricity at Work come into it?
 
The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (defra) tell you in there "Code of Practice for the Welfare of Horses, Ponies, Donkeys and their Hybrids" that your electrical installation should be installed/maintained and tested to current BS7671.

Part P has nothing to do with what you are doing full stop.

Now stop posting and get on with it and please post us some pictures of your finished installation please (but no pictures of your dead horses as its clear you dont have a clue what is required for the welfare of the animals).
 

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