Blowing sockets and popping RCD

[Josh555]

My understanding of this is that the company didn't send him out to do this job, but rather that it is being done as a "nixer". Apologies in advance if I have misunderstood.

You are correct

 

[Alan-N]

No they were not reversed I checked my connections like I said. I also used my socket tester before I left which shows if all cables are in the correct terminals

Well you have a line to cpc or neutral to cpc short which is why the RCD is kicking in before the MCB, if you don't have a cable in the wrong connector, then check around the metal back box, did you catch a wire when you put the socket screw back in, or was there a cut in insulation that has now touched the box

 

[Josh555]

Well you have a line to cpc or neutral to cpc short which is why the RCD is kicking in before the MCB, if you don't have a cable in the wrong connector, then check around the metal back box, did you catch a wire when you put the socket screw back in, or was there a cut in insulation that has now touched the box

Will have a look at this next time I go thanks for the help

 

[Lister1987]

Well you have a line to cpc or neutral to cpc short which is why the RCD is kicking in before the MCB, if you don't have a cable in the wrong connector, then check around the metal back box, did you catch a wire when you put the socket screw back in, or was there a cut in insulation that has now touched the box

I was waiting for a comment like this, OP should get to know what devices operate when and why; with the RCD going off before/insert of the MÇB he ought to know straight away he's looking for a fault to earth.

 

[westward10]

Can we keep this friendly trading insults is not helping in any way.

 

[Alan-N]

Right let's start from basics Josh, your original post is a bit confusing and throwing in things like "sparking down" and "blowing" didn't help others to sympathize with your situation.

It sounds like you added 2 sockets by spurring off a ring in 2 places, 1 spur per new socket, and you didn't extend the ring

It's not clear if your subsequent issues came from 1 or both of the old sockets. let's assume just the 1 as 2 would be more than bad luck

I believe you now have the new sockets operational with no more tripping the RCD, and you have achieved that be removing the old sockets and using wago connectors. Again not sure if that's both of them or just the 1

So if this is correct then the fault which is almost certainly a short to earth (or cpc if you prefer) is very likely to be one of your conductors was shorting against the metal backbox , although your description suggested it was shorting inside the socket itself which is why I asked if you had inadvertently used the wrong connections to the socket. If you are used to using only the same type over and over, then you need to always double-check you get them right as not all sockets are set out the same.

Your next step should be to go back with 2 new sockets to replace your wago's BUT carefully check ALL the conductors for any damage and take with you some sleeving (all 3 colours) to make good any cuts in the insulation, pay attention to areas around the knockouts and ensure all grommets are in place. Even if there were no grommets fitted, it is now your responsibility to fit them. Also check for damage where the socket screws might have cut in when you tightened them up

New sockets and proper insulation should solve your issue if its working with wago's

Testing is important, I'm not going to preach, but at the least you want to check you have a decent Zs at all 4. A socket tester is a handy tool, but shouldn't be an alternative to proper testing.

You will learn from this , but if you genuinely want help again be humble. State upfront your in training and need advise, and be precise in how you present your issue.

Good luck

 

[Josh555]

Right let's start from basics Josh, your original post is a bit confusing and throwing in things like "sparking down" and "blowing" didn't help others to sympathize with your situation.

It sounds like you added 2 sockets by spurring off a ring in 2 places, 1 spur per new socket, and you didn't extend the ring

It's not clear if your subsequent issues came from 1 or both of the old sockets. let's assume just the 1 as 2 would be more than bad luck

I believe you now have the new sockets operational with no more tripping the RCD, and you have achieved that be removing the old sockets and using wago connectors. Again not sure if that's both of them or just the 1

So if this is correct then the fault which is almost certainly a short to earth (or cpc if you prefer) is very likely to be one of your conductors was shorting against the metal backbox , although your description suggested it was shorting inside the socket itself which is why I asked if you had inadvertently used the wrong connections to the socket. If you are used to using only the same type over and over, then you need to always double-check you get them right as not all sockets are set out the same.

Your next step should be to go back with 2 new sockets to replace your wago's BUT carefully check ALL the conductors for any damage and take with you some sleeving (all 3 colours) to make good any cuts in the insulation, pay attention to areas around the knockouts and ensure all grommets are in place. Even if there were no grommets fitted, it is now your responsibility to fit them. Also check for damage where the socket screws might have cut in when you tightened them up

New sockets and proper insulation should solve your issue if its working with wago's

Testing is important, I'm not going to preach, but at the least you want to check you have a decent Zs at all 4. A socket tester is a handy tool, but shouldn't be an alternative to proper testing.

You will learn from this , but if you genuinely want help again be humble. State upfront your in training and need advise, and be precise in how you present your issue.

Good luck

Thank you very much.
Much appreciated, I will take this on board
Have a wonderful day

 

[Risteard]

Right let's start from basics Josh, your original post is a bit confusing and throwing in things like "sparking down" and "blowing" didn't help others to sympathize with your situation.

It sounds like you added 2 sockets by spurring off a ring in 2 places, 1 spur per new socket, and you didn't extend the ring

It's not clear if your subsequent issues came from 1 or both of the old sockets. let's assume just the 1 as 2 would be more than bad luck

I believe you now have the new sockets operational with no more tripping the RCD, and you have achieved that be removing the old sockets and using wago connectors. Again not sure if that's both of them or just the 1

So if this is correct then the fault which is almost certainly a short to earth (or cpc if you prefer) is very likely to be one of your conductors was shorting against the metal backbox , although your description suggested it was shorting inside the socket itself which is why I asked if you had inadvertently used the wrong connections to the socket. If you are used to using only the same type over and over, then you need to always double-check you get them right as not all sockets are set out the same.

Your next step should be to go back with 2 new sockets to replace your wago's BUT carefully check ALL the conductors for any damage and take with you some sleeving (all 3 colours) to make good any cuts in the insulation, pay attention to areas around the knockouts and ensure all grommets are in place. Even if there were no grommets fitted, it is now your responsibility to fit them. Also check for damage where the socket screws might have cut in when you tightened them up

New sockets and proper insulation should solve your issue if its working with wago's

Testing is important, I'm not going to preach, but at the least you want to check you have a decent Zs at all 4. A socket tester is a handy tool, but shouldn't be an alternative to proper testing.

You will learn from this , but if you genuinely want help again be humble. State upfront your in training and need advise, and be precise in how you present your issue.

Good luck

Shouldn't really use sleeving to repair damaged insulation as it's only for identification purposes and isn't rated for any insulating properties.

 

[123]

Looks like that consumer unit (post #3) was changed last March - and what a state it looks. 63A up front RCD with Shower (32A MCB, hmmm), Panel Heater, Cooker and then all the rest of the house on it. Not that familiar with Wylex but that RCD looks a fair bit older than the rest of the board (can't recall the last time I got a type AC from wholesalers)

 

[ipf]

Looks like that consumer unit (post #3) was changed last March - and what a state it looks. 63A up front RCD with Shower (32A MCB, hmmm), Panel Heater, Cooker and then all the rest of the house on it. Not that familiar with Wylex but that RCD looks a fair bit older than the rest of the board (can't recall the last time I got a type AC from wholesalers)

Yeah, no main switch, even, let alone RCD separation. Looks like touching the job was asking for trouble, especially for someone so inexperienced.
Thought it was the type A incomer these days. Generally use them for garage units.

 

[goasis]

Come on then @Josh555 ... you got some grief over the weekend, have you been back to sort this yet? What was it?

 

[Grant1987]

Come on then @Josh555 ... you got some grief over the weekend, have you been back to sort this yet? What was it?

I think he we might have hit a nerve with josh. Although we do come across as being harsh it’s with good intentions. If he reads through Alan-N’s post step by step he will have sorted the fault. Anyhow I hope you don’t get put off josh but the guys/gals on here can be ruthless at times (speaking from prior experience) but will always try to help a fellow tradesman

 

[7029 dave]

Just looked at this thread and all the posts, the OP is clearly out of his depth and should not be taking on jobs unless supervised.
No testing, not using the correct terminology. I would have thought with over 2years experience the OP would be at a higher level of experience.
Fair play to @Alan-N trying to assist but step by step coaching from the key board!!
These might be harsh words but I am only trying to make the OP realise electricity is dangerous, with what he described lucky there was not a fire.

 

[Josh555]

Just looked at this thread and all the posts, the OP is clearly out of his depth and should not be taking on jobs unless supervised.
No testing, not using the correct terminology. I would have thought with over 2years experience the OP would be at a higher level of experience.
Fair play to @Alan-N trying to assist but step by step coaching from the key board!!
These might be harsh words but I am only trying to make the OP realise electricity is dangerous, with what he described lucky there was not a fire.

Don’t know how not using the correct terminology shows a level of experience but ok. Please don’t assume because someone doesn’t use correct terminology they are inexperienced you never know the causes And by the way a lot of electricians don’t carry out testing before carrying out minor works. Only spuring of two double sockets

I have carried out much more complex task unsupervised

And by the way a reply too @goasis the problem was a debris in the terminals of the old sockets. a lot of plaster dust from the plasterer as they were doing the place up

 

[7029 dave]

Don’t know how not using the correct terminology shows a level of experience but ok. And by the way a lot of electricians don’t carry out testing before carrying out minor works. Only spuring of two double sockets

I have carried out much more complex task unsupervised

And by the way a reply too @goasis the problem was a debris in the terminals of the old sockets.

OK (by the way) crack on.
You dont have to tell me my business fella been at this game 42years.

 

[Lister1987]

Don’t know how not using the correct terminology shows a level of experience but ok.

A conscientious tradesperson, when talking to others in same trade, ought to be using the correct terms a) to avoid confusion and misinterpretion, b) to demonstrate understanding and c) because it's professional. Not knowing the vernacular can be a quickfire indication that a person may not know how to walk before they start running. You could say its just being anally retentive but wherever you are in your learning journey, it's vital to use the correct vernacular.

And by the way a lot of electricians don’t carry out testing before carrying out minor works. Only spuring of two double sockets

Just because that's how they do it, doesn't mean it's correct. There is a reason that the sequence of tests appear in the order they do.

Many electricians will no doubt have stories of times they didn't check the health of an installation prior to undertaking work, only be have a horrific time with the installation because things snowballed.

132.16 - No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.

Which leads nicely into 134.1.1 -
Good workmanship by one or more skilled or instructed persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers' instructions.

How can one claim good workmanship if they've not checked before undertaking the work?

As much as I hate religious teachings; "The foolish man built his house upon the sand" , Don't ask where it comes from, it just fits with the point

 

[Josh555]

A conscientious tradesperson, when talking to others in same trade, ought to be using the correct terms a) to avoid confusion and misinterpretion, b) to demonstrate understanding and c) because it's professional. Not knowing the vernacular can be a quickfire indication that a person may not know how to walk before they start running. You could say its just being anally retentive but wherever you are in your learning journey, it's vital to use the correct vernacular.


Just because that's how they do it, doesn't mean it's correct. There is a reason that the sequence of tests appear in the order they do.

Many electricians will no doubt have stories of times they didn't check the health of an installation prior to undertaking work, only be have a horrific time with the installation because things snowballed.

132.16 - No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.

Which leads nicely into 134.1.1 -
Good workmanship by one or more skilled or instructed persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers' instructions.

How can one claim good workmanship if they've not checked before undertaking the work?

As much as I hate religious teachings; "The foolish man built his house upon the sand" , Don't ask where it comes from, it just fits with the point

Fare enough just not used to testing before carrying out work. Will think about this moving forward

 

[Josh555]

OK (by the way) crack on.
You dont have to tell me my business fella been at this game 42years.

 

[7029 dave]

As much as I hate religious teachings; "The foolish man built his house upon the sand" , Don't ask where it comes from, it just fits with the point
And as the rain came tumbling down the foolish mans house is washed away.

 

[Grant1987]

Fare enough just not used to testing before carrying out work. Will think about this moving forward

Take it on the chin josh, however do not be afraid to write on here at any time. Like I said In previous post, I’ve been through similar scenario as yourself but I’ve always respected the views and advice from the seniors on here or juniors and learnt a great deal. It’s a great forum to broaden your knowledge so stick at it