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Discuss Bonding gas/water yellow and blue in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
I would expect you to if those legs are not connected together above ground.
Still having problems with this site.
Agree that would make nonsense of the 4mm2 non protected and 2.5mm2 protected rules for supplementary bonding conductors, wouldn't it? Or has that been changed?re spinlondon's post:
The other problem is that the minimum CSA for an Earth conductor buried in the ground and not protected against corrosion by a sheath is 25mm2, 16mm2 if protected.
sureley that's for an earthing conductor, as in connected to a rod., not for a bonding conductor?
That sounds promising Lee! Where did you see that, can you post a link please?When the 18th is published it looks like they have put it in black and white that if the incomer is plastic then doesn't need bonding.
The impact of the 18th Edition (BS 7671:2018) – Chapters 41, 46, 53 and Regulation 542.2.2 - IET Electrical - https://electrical.------.org/wiring-matters/66/impact-18th-cha-41-46-53/index.cfmThat sounds promising Lee! Where did you see that, can you post a link please?
Bleedin' daft this 18th.....now they're telling us we have to change from green and yellow cable to black and white cable....if it's plastic.When the 18th is published it looks like they have put it in black and white that if the incomer is plastic then doesn't need bonding.
There’s no Reg stating you have to test whether something is an extraneous conductive-Part.Can someone reference the reg for testing an extraneous-conductive-part, in the examples given by 411.3.1.2. I only ask that, you would not need to test (those examples), as the reg says they have to be bonded, end of?
There’s no Reg stating you have to test whether something is an extraneous conductive-Part.
There’s no need for one.
If it’s extraneous (i.e. comes into the building from outside), is conductive (i.e. can conduct electricity) and likely to introduce a difference in potential, then it needs bonding.
Determining whether something is extraneous is relatively easy, in the majority of instances you don’t even need to look, you just know.
Gas, water, electricity, cable TV, satalite TV, waste water, telephone, oil, etc. they’re all extraneous.
Test.My rub is, with the plastic metal combo, unless your building the property yourself, how do you ensure that the metal part of the combo, isn't 'liable' to do the above.
Test.
Because, you want to verify that the extraneous conductive-parts are not likely to introduce a difference in potential.Why.
Why?Agree that would make nonsense of the 4mm2 non protected and 2.5mm2 protected rules for supplementary bonding conductors, wouldn't it? Or has that been changed?
Alsways took it as applying to al Earth conductors.re spinlondon's post:
The other problem is that the minimum CSA for an Earth conductor buried in the ground and not protected against corrosion by a sheath is 25mm2, 16mm2 if protected.
sureley that's for an earthing conductor, as in connected to a rod., not for a bonding conductor?
no.the 22k ohms is to prove whether or not a piece of copper /metal pipe is extraneous or not.
Apologies spin misread the original post, my mistakeWhy?
Thank you spinlondonIf it’s extraneous, then it would be main bonding.
Supplementary bonding is for special locations and where Zs of a circuit is too high.
It's not a grey area. If it's an extraneous conductive part it needs bonding. If it's not an extraneous conductive part it doesn't need bonding. I always run a green and yellow in for gas and water on a new builds as I've had muppet meter fitters refusing to connect as no bonding, even though it didn't require bonding. If they moan I connect it then chop it off when the muppet has finished.
Lets be fair the meter box IS the entry point to the building, albeit external, that's where the Gas and Electricity enter the building, it does in my house.The other favourite of theirs is when they tell you the gas isn't bonded and they've only looked at the external meter box. They then insist it should be bonded at the external meter box even though we all know the regs say it should be at the point of entry into the building. Muppets
If the gas supply is metallic and bonded, and the water supply is plastic but the internal metallic water pipes are cross bonded with the metallic gas pipe, then it will all be at the same potentialEven with a plastic incoming water supply, if the installation is completely metallic (copper) it will almost definitely be introducing earth potential via the connection at the boiler. Where the plumber has bonded all the pipes together at the boiler as in the above picture, you can be sure all the metallic pipework will be introducing earth potential as the gas supply pipe to the boiler will be metallic and earthed at the boiler.
So unless you can confirm the pipework is not at earth potential (which it will be if it is an all metallic installation and the boiler supply is correctly earthed) then it will need bonding.
Waste of time cross bonding that lot, they’re all joined together by that bracket.View attachment 40776 Common sense...
Muppet missed one out!
Makes me laughWaste of time cross bonding that lot, they’re all joined together by that bracket.
Taught at a Electrical Trainee course no doubt.Makes me laugh
Agreed. But.... not relevant. If that was acceptable then you could say let’s only bond the gas even if the water is on a metallic supply pipe as it’s all at the same potential.If the gas supply is metallic and bonded, and the water supply is plastic but the internal metallic water pipes are cross bonded with the metallic gas pipe, then it will all be at the same potential
If it’s extraneous, then it would be main bonding.
Supplementary bonding is for special locations and where Zs of a circuit is too high.
no you couldn’t say that because the pipework could be altered or even disconnected which is why we provide bonding as close to the intake position as possible and before any branches or tee sectionsAgreed. But.... not relevant. If that was acceptable then you could say let’s only bond the gas even if the water is on a metallic supply pipe as it’s all at the same potential.
I’m only interpreting the regs.
It’s not a test to verify supplementary bonding at all.
As bs 7671 states where doubt exists about the effectiveness of supplementary bonding conductors then the formula 50/Idelta N can be used in the case of an rcd or 50/Ia , if No rcd ,can be used to determine the effectiveness of the supplementary bonding to pipework
I’m saying testing a piece of metal to see if it’s an extraneous conductive part isn’t the same test to verify supplementary bonding conductors where doubt exists over there effectiveness.
I thought it was quite clear really.
No confrontation by me was meant it’s just the way the txt has come out I think.I'm not trying to be confrontational, just trying to understand. I thought there was only one testing procedure, aka 415.2.2 and or Chris Kitcher video explanation.
No confrontation by me was meant it’s just the way the txt has come out I think.
I know the testing of extraneous parts comes from Gn8 and the 10mA “yeah I felt that “ approach.
Well this is from the Electrical safety council website.I'll have a read of GN8 & 3. Only asking as I come across a lot of existing PME installs, with existing bonding to plastic copper combo's in 6mm (16mm tails).
Edit; think I asked some advice from Elecsa Tech', see if I can dig up their response. I know the stance now with a metal service, is it must be upgraded to 10mm, whatever. Which is a nonsense, when doing some minor work!
Well I can’t see how say you move a light switch from one wall to another and you complete a minor works certificate PME earthing arrangement.There has been - Certsure wise - a change to that particular guidance. As its taken me about ten mins to post these few lines, I'll post tomorrow, when its less busy!
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