C-TEC fire alarm compatibility

[peteronowak]

Out of interest, how did this cable monkey do the sounder circuits?

the exact same way as all the detectors and call points... a 2 core cable (at least he used the shielded and fireproof one) from point to point...

So he did one cable for zone 1 sounder (point to point) and another for zone 2 (point to point)

I haven't even checked if this (for the sounders) is ok... I just immediately got upset about the circuit cabling

 

[timhoward]

so he did one cable for zone 1 sounder (point to point) and another for zone 2 (point to point)

I haven't even checked if this (for the sounders) is ok... I just immediately got upset about the circuit cabling

If you are saying you have 2 sounder circuit cables back at the panel it's ok. If you are saying that you have 8 sounder cables back at the panel then this all falls flat as they have EOL devices too.
If the latter the only solution I can see is use a bi-wire system (e.g. Fike Twin flex pro) and combined detector/sounders, and fine a way to either lose a detector or find the simplest cable run between two devices (loft space?) as I'm not aware of an >8 zone bi-wire system.

 

[peteronowak]

If you are saying you have 2 sounder circuit cables back at the panel it's ok. If you are saying that you have 8 sounder cables back at the panel then this all falls flat as they have EOL devices too.
If the latter the only solution I can see is use a bi-wire system (e.g. Fike Twin flex pro) and combined detector/sounders, and fine a way to either lose a detector or find the simplest cable run between two devices (loft space?) as I'm not aware of an >8 zone bi-wire system.

thanks Tim, yes, I have 2 sounder cables back to the central point (where the panel will sit)

one cable is for one sounder, the other cable is for the other sounder

I then have another 9 cables coming to the central point (where the panel will sit) each of these cables are going directly to the devices, 7 of them to detectors, 2 of them to call points.

The cable monkey simply thought that each device will be connected directly to the panel and not in a series.

So now I am trying to find a fire alarm panel that would accept this setup...

Perhaps, if I can't find a panel, then maybe 2 panels can be installed and the devices would be split between them into zones... one would have 5 zones, and a sounder and the other 4 zones and a spunder...

re-wire it into a series would be a pig of a job.... :-(

Many thanks again for all the replies

 

[MReynish6]

Personally just rewire it so it’s done correctly, you’re asking for problems in my opinion. It’s not ideal to have so many zones in such a small system. Have you considered how it and if it meets fire regs etc? Is the commissioning engineer happy for it to be possibly done the way you’re looking at now?

 

[peteronowak]

Personally just rewire it so it’s done correctly, you’re asking for problems in my opinion. It’s not ideal to have so many zones in such a small system. Have you considered how it and if it meets fire regs etc? Is the commissioning engineer happy for it to be possibly done the way you’re looking at now?

yeah I understand it is not ideal having that many zones, I'm just trying to see what would be the best option. re-wire would at the moment be the last thing I would like to do

 

[westward10]

I know what I would be doing. Start van and wave good bye.

 

[peteronowak]

Another (better) possibility, look at ESP Magfire - I think they make a 12 zone conventional panel. Very basic but it might be your only option.

Hi again Tim,

what about this panel (also from CTEK)

FF392-2 FP 12 Zone Conventional Fire Alarm Panel

C-TEC's BS5989-4 compliant FP 12 Zone conventional fire panel c/w 2 sounder circuits. Not suitable for new installations in the EU.

c-tec.com

This would look to me as though it can take 12 zones, so connecting each device up individually and create a zone for each and every device... would that not work?

Obviously also close each device with a EOL...

 

[timhoward]

Hi again Tim,

what about this panel (also from CTEK)

It would work.
The thing it is does say "this panel in not compliant with EN54-2/4 and should NOT be used in new UK or European installations"....
You could do with some advice from a current fire alarm engineer as I got out of this game a long while ago, and can't give you any info about whether the lack of compliance of EN54 on that panel is an issue or not.

 

[peteronowak]

It would work.
The thing it is does say "this panel in not compliant with EN54-2/4 and should NOT be used in new UK or European installations"....
You could do with some advice from a current fire alarm engineer as I got out of this game a long while ago, and can't give you any info about whether the lack of compliance of EN54 on that panel is an issue or not.

aha... indeed well spotted Tim, I did not catch that... well, I will try to get in touch with someone to hear about this non compliant issue... and to hear if there is perhaps a panel that would support 12 individual zones and be compliant

 

[westward10]

What is the story behind this. Was it your job to design and install the system or are you trying to patch up someone else's mess.

 

[peteronowak]

What is the story behind this. Was it your job to design and install the system or are you trying to patch up someone else's mess.

I am the owner of the property, cabling was done by someone who obviously did not know whst they were doing

 

[westward10]

So you employed someone to install a fire alarm system but you are trying to sort the mess and the control panel, why?

 

[peteronowak]

So you employed someone to install a fire alarm system but you are trying to sort the mess and the control panel, why?

because I want/need a functioning fire alarm system.

 

[westward10]

But you employed them to do this have they left you high and dry.

 

[Yozza19]

The best way (not the cheapest )
Is to install a small single loop addressable pannel eg advanced or c tec xfp and 9 no sun rail zone monitors
This would be a compliant system

 

[DPG]

Agree with Westward here - you need to get the guy back to put things right, rather than fanny* about trying to bodge a solution. Have you paid him?

*can I say fanny on here?

 

[oscar21]

Did you badger the spark to install the system because he was cheaper than a fire alarm company? People ask me to do all the donkey work pulling in data cables and stuff for other people all the time, ok I'll graft my arse off pulling in all your cables and you turn up in a suit and tie, program it all and make 10 times as much as me, I don't think so.

This sounds like a typical installation that ends up with holes everywhere, chancers wired the fire alarm in a star configuration but probably daisy chained the network cables, don't you just love em.

Reminds me of a job we did last year, a 7 bed HMO, we priced for the electrics, emergency lights and fire alarm, we only got the electrics part as he had a mate "that could do fire alarms". I was there whilst he was installing it and I thought it was all a bit strange, he looped a piece of 4 core FP cable in and out of every point but it just ended up as a radial at the furthest away point ,no loop, no separate circuits, just one big radial. When it was finished he had just put a load of Aico smoke detectors at every point, no fire panel just domestic smokes. Not sure how that has gone down with the council/licencing body, I thought a HMO had to have a proper fire alarm system, I priced for an addressable system at about £5k. Also I still don't think he ever connected the emergency lights or the smoke detectors to the mains, he must have assumed I was going to do it for some odd reason.

 

[MJPD29]

Or have you wired it yourself…

 

[Kenny212]

If the wiring can't be corrected , the best solution is to get a cheap 1 loop addressable fire alarm panel and create a loop and install isolators at the fire alarm panel and connect each zone cable to a different isolator and change all the non addressable devices to addressable devices and then you can put each device in the correct zone and put in location text of each device