Covering electrical wiring for lighting circuits with loft insulation ?

[chris murphy]

"Hello All",


Could I get the Opinions of some of the Electrical Professionals Please regarding covering Electrical Wiring for Lighting Circuits with Loft Insulation - Here are some details regarding why I am asking - And although I THINK that I am correct in stating that this should NOT be done - the `Real World Practicalities` that I have been Reminded about:


I am advising a Relative about some Energy Efficiency Measures for their recently purchased Home - the most Obvious / Effective being to have the Loft Insulation Topped Up to 270mm thickness of Fibre Glass Loft Insulation.

This has raised the Question about the Lighting Wiring being Covered by the Loft Insulation - Which I think that I KNOW [?] should NOT be done - ?

I believe that I would have known many Years ago that this should NOT be done because of the possible Overheating of the Wiring - But I was `Reminded` by a representative from the Company who will be Installing the Loft Insulation that in almost ALL Lofts the Lighting Wiring CANNOT be lifted up to accommodate the Loft Insulation underneath.

He told Me that IF I was Correct in stating that the Wiring should NOT be covered EVERY Home that they Insulated would have to be Rewired for the Lighting Circuits - To Allow enough `Slack` in the Wiring to Install the Insulation underneath - Which obviously is NEVER done ! - And He stated that He would NOT want the Insulation Operatives to be `Pulling Cables About` in any case - Because of possible `Loose Wires`.

I have looked Online about Installation Methods for Loft Insulation and did find the comment about NOT Insulating over Electrical Wiring - BUT - As the Insulation Company representative stated this is NEVER adhered to by them or any other Loft Insulation Company that He has worked for.

And that this `Requirement` would STOP People from having their Homes Insulated because VER FEW People would be prepared to have an Electrician Rewire the Lighting Circuits to accommodate the Loft Insulation - ALSO - a very large percentage of the Company`s work is carried out under Grants for Home Energy Efficiency and these Homes would NOT be Insulated IF the Electrical Wiring had to be Redone - Thousands of Properties !


Obviously I realise [If this is correct ?] that with the use of `Low Wattage` / High Efficiency Lightbulbs [Lamps] there is not so much `Draw` through the Lighting Cables - and I assume that this means there is much less possibility of a Overheat Situation - ?? - But I was told that NOT Covering the Electrical Cables with Loft Insulation has NEVER been adhered to - Regardless of the Wattage Lightbulbs that were in use [NEVER even considered].

He / the Insulation Operatives were aware of the need for `Boxes` to enclose Recessed Lights prior to Loft Insulation being fitted.


I was told by the Insulation Company Representative that He could not remember this `Issue` EVER being brought to His attention and that He has worked for 3 Insulation Companies who have probably Insulated `Hundreds of Thousands` of Homes between them !

I would really appreciate the Professional Opinion of some Members - And I would ask Are the Electrical Cables in YOUR Lofts covered by Loft Insulation ?


"Sorry" to have written such a long Post about this - But I wanted to explain the situation correctly.


Chris

 

[SimpleSimon]

Alot of us on here will have theur own opinions on this topic.
Personally, lighting circuits should be fixed to the loft beams and not floating around.
if downlighters are installed a sufficient space should be cleared around each one so as no insulation could set alight or cause fire.
in regards to wiring, a sufficient assessment should be made on each individual household with the following.
-the load on the circuits.
- the thickness of insulation
- are there any other circuits ti group the cables with.
-Current quality of the cables.
all these factors an electrician will take in regard to suitably 'derate' the cable and make sure that its still efficient to carry the load of the upstairs circuit.
in cases of 270mm you may have to upgrade the cable to a larger size to accomodate a better cabke carrying capacity but i doubt it.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello SimpleSimon",

Thanks for your Reply - I agree that IF this situation was being Investigated as a `One Off` / Onsite Decision there could be calculations done by an Electrician - BUT My main reason for raising the Question is that there is NO Consideration given to Covering Electrical Wiring by these Loft Insulation Companies.

`NEVER even considered` was the comment from the Insulation Company Representative !

From His comments and actually thinking about what I have seen in Lofts Myself - I would suggest that there are MILLIONS of Loft Insulations that are COVERING the Electrical Cables.

By the way - 270mm has been the `Recommended Depth` for Fibreglass / Rockwool Blanket Loft Insulation for quite some time now.

"Thanks for your Reply".

Chris

 

[SimpleSimon]

Chris your absolutely right. Unfortunately its one of things that come up where the mentality is "its not our trade so we wont bother"
Hopefully these home owners have since had a periodic inspection and the wires have been inspected and assessed. More time and money for the home owner but could prevent a fire and save a life.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello SimpleSimon",

The thing is People do NOT have their Homes Inspected - And IF I am Guessing Correctly MILLIONS of Homes have their Lighting Circuit Wiring covered by Loft Insulation !

I am not writing about this because I think that this will be a `Revelation` to the Forum - It is just because what I was advising My Relative about caused Me to think about this - then to Ask the Insulation Company`s `Surveyor` [ Term used loosely] about it.

Then:

Because I am a Member on this GREAT Forum - Where there is obviously a WEALTH of Electrical Expertise and Knowledge - I wanted to get some `Feedback` about the `Real World` Installation of Loft Insulation - which is almost invariably OVER the Electrical Cables !

Chris

 

[Amp David]

For your lighting, providing its protected by a 6 amp CPD then theres not much to worry about.

Circuits like showers and socket circuits would or should be derated accordingly

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Amp David",

Thanks for your Reply - Although I understand what You are saying about 6 Amp CPD [`Protection`] would there be still a chance of Overheating of the Lighting Circuits Wiring ?

I believe that My Relative has found that She HAS TO use some 100 Watt Incandescent Light Bulbs in Her Home - One of which is because a Low Energy Bulb interferes with one of Her Alarm PIRs.

And She also has Light Switch Timers Installed because She is away from Home frequently and uses these to give the Home a `Lived In` / Someone is In appearance - She / I have found that these can only be used with either `Good Quality` Low Energy Bulbs OR Incandescent Bulbs - As the Cheaper Low Energy Bulbs have a Constant Flicker due to the operation of the Light Switch Timers [Passing a small current ?].

She would be having these Incandescent 100 Watt Bulbs `On` for long periods of the Evening / Night in Winter - Any chance that the Loft Insulation would cause Overheating of the Cables ?

"Thanks for Your Help",


Chris

 

[Amp David]

Example.

1.5mm twin and earth installed above a plasterboard ceiling covered by more than 100mm of insulation, max current capacity of the cable is 13 amps and its protected by a 6 amp MCB.

A shower on the other hand wired in 6mm twin and earth, the cable has a current capacity of 27 amps and is probably protected by a 32 or 40 amp MCB. In this situation its an issue as OCPD is rated higher than the cable current carrying capacity.

 

[telectrix]

spot on there , amp. as long as the In of the MCB is < the derated ccc of the cable ..OK. with lighting, this doesn't usually cause a problem .6A is about 1300 watts or 13 x x100w lamps. it's showers , immersion heaters and socket circuits where problems arise, apart from the obvious one of heat dissipation from downlighters.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Amp David and telectrix",

Thank You both very much for your clear explanations.

I have worked in MANY Lofts - Installing Tanks and Pipework etc. and I have seen MANY cases of Electric Shower / Immersion Heater / Power Socket Wiring run in Roof Spaces - especially in Upper Floor Flats - where is was obviously much easier to do this than to take up Floor Coverings and then Floor Boards - Drilling Joists etc. - Run the Cables and then have to Refix the Floorboards and Floor Coverings.

I would imagine that there are MANY Properties where the Risk of the Cables Over Heating is REAL ! - Perhaps especially for Electrical Showers and Immersion Heaters [?].

As I asked in My Original Post - I wonder how many Electrical Professionals have Loft Insulation covering Their Electrical Wiring in the Loft / Roof Space ??
Those who did NOT carry out the Wiring themselves [The Vast Majority] - Have they given ANY thought to what I described in their own Home ??

I have been told by My Relatives Husband that the only Electrical Wiring in their Roof Space IS Lighting Wiring - He knows this because He asked the Electrician that I advised Him to get after the House Purchase to carry out a `Safety Inspection` [I know that some members don`t like this Term].

The Electrician did find some items that needed attention for Safety Purposes and also some New Sockets were required in better positions for the T.V.`s etc. - and I would ALWAYS advise a Home Purchaser to have an Electrical Inspection carried out straight away.

"Thank You" again for your comments and Technical Information.

Chris - Heating - Plumbing & Gas Installer

 

[Amp David]

None in my loft as i rewired the house 8 years ago and made sure of it

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Amp David",

I wonder if the MAJORITY of Electricians - [AND Everyone else] HAVE got the Electrical Wiring in their Roof Spaces Covered by Loft Insulation ?? - Although PERHAPS they would have Found out about any 2.5mm - 6mm and 10mm Cables running in the Roof Space and then made sure that these were NOT Covered ??

"Just a Thought".


Chris

 

[telectrix]

ours are not covered in insulation, just junk shoved up there out of the way. then again it's only lighting except for a short run shower cable.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

the o/p might want to have a look at 523.7 BRB and table 52.2 BRB which is as 6B..appendix 6 p(125) in the on site guide......

 

[Richard Burns]

The reality of the situation is that the insulation instillation companies are not concerned (as you say) with the potential fire risk entailed by not complying with the wiring regulations. Many homes will have been insulated over the wiring.
As stated above the usual wiring in a loft space is lighting which will not cause a problem. Because large electric showers are reasonably modern one hopes that electricians will be installing these correctly and taking the wiring out of the insulation. Because they are only used intermittently for short periods they are unlikely to cause a problem even when insulated, but there are many reports of fires from showers being used with too small a cable even when not insulated, so there will be a risk.
Until the insulation companies take some action this will be the real life situation.

 

[trev]

What would be better for us sparks would be installation of kingspan or something similar in the rafters. That way we wouldn't have to worry so much about it.

 

[chris murphy]

the o/p might want to have a look at 523.7 BRB and table 52.2 BRB which is as 6B..appendix 6 p(125) in the on site guide......

"Hello GLENSPARK",

Thanks for Posting the References that You noted for Me - I WILL endeavour to research those - As I am Interested in finding out more regarding what I enquired about - Although I think that the `Simple Explanations` that I received have put My mind at rest regarding My Relative`s Home - forthcoming Loft Insulation.

As You may have noticed from My various Posts I am NOT an Electrician - I am a Heating Engineer - When I completed Courses [Years ago] on the ACOPS Electrical Scheme - JUST to be confident of being `Electrically Safe` when working on Gas Appliances etc. - And the Course and Assessment for the CORGI Defined Scope in Electrical Installation etc. I had access to [and owned a couple] Various Electrical Regulation Manuals -Mainly from the Institute of Electrical Engineers - [now called IET ?] - and obviously at the College I would have been able to Refer to ANY Document - British Standards etc. that was relevant to the Course and `Exams` / Assessments.

NOW - especially as I do NOT carry out My own Electrical Wiring for Heating Systems etc. I do NOT have these Reference Manuals / British standards to refer to - Because I do NOT need to - Otherwise I would have ALL that I would ever need as a matter of course - As I am sure You and your fellow Electrical Professionals do have.

I have a Multitude of Reference Documents / Manuals and British Standards relating to Gas Utilisation / Gas Safety - Water Regulations - Health & Hygiene Regulations - and many more - As with Yourself I sometimes need to refer to an actual Regulation or British Standard / CE Mark / Details - Because these ARE relevant to My `Scope of Works`.

Thank You again for the references to these `Informative` / Regulatory Paragraphs - which I hope that I am correct in thinking that are in the Institute of Electrical Engineers [IET]Onsite Guide ?? - Hopefully I may be able to find these Online ?

Regards,


Chris

 

[telectrix]

What would be better for us sparks would be installation of kingspan or something similar in the rafters. That way we wouldn't have to worry so much about it.

exactly what i think. the problem is cost. a 8 x 4 sheet of kingspan is around £35. and the time taken to cut and install it. you can teach a monkey to lay fibreglass but sharp tools are needed for kingspan

 

[GLENNSPARK]

"Hello GLENSPARK",

Thanks for Posting the References that You noted for Me - I WILL endeavour to research those - As I am Interested in finding out more regarding what I enquired about - Although I think that the `Simple Explanations` that I received have put My mind at rest regarding My Relative`s Home - forthcoming Loft Insulation.

As You may have noticed from My various Posts I am NOT an Electrician - I am a Heating Engineer - When I completed Courses [Years ago] on the ACOPS Electrical Scheme - JUST to be confident of being `Electrically Safe` when working on Gas Appliances etc. - And the Course and Assessment for the CORGI Defined Scope in Electrical Installation etc. I had access to [and owned a couple] Various Electrical Regulation Manuals -Mainly from the Institute of Electrical Engineers - [now called IET ?] - and obviously at the College I would have been able to Refer to ANY Document - British Standards etc. that was relevant to the Course and `Exams` / Assessments.

NOW - especially as I do NOT carry out My own Electrical Wiring for Heating Systems etc. I do NOT have these Reference Manuals / British standards to refer to - Because I do NOT need to - Otherwise I would have ALL that I would ever need as a matter of course - As I am sure You and your fellow Electrical Professionals do have.

I have a Multitude of Reference Documents / Manuals and British Standards relating to Gas Utilisation / Gas Safety - Water Regulations - Health & Hygiene Regulations - and many more - As with Yourself I sometimes need to refer to an actual Regulation or British Standard / CE Mark / Details - Because these ARE relevant to My `Scope of Works`.

Thank You again for the references to these `Informative` / Regulatory Paragraphs - which I hope that I am correct in thinking that are in the Institute of Electrical Engineers [IET]Onsite Guide ?? - Hopefully I may be able to find these Online ?

Regards,


Chris

Well firstly thanks chris. i am still (trying) to learn this trade myself and consider myself green. As far as the OSG and the BRB/BGB are concerned its a case of hands in wallet i`m afraid.......

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello" ,

Insulating between the Rafters in a Home where the Roof Space is NOT going to be converted into Living Accommodation would NOT be a suitable Method of Insulating to prevent Heat Loss - The Inherent Ventilation of a Roof Space - Some Intentional and some `Adventitious`/ Naturally Occurring / Draughts means that even with Insulation between the Rafters the `Air Space` would be nearly as COLD as Outside Air - even with the Heat Gain from the Home - which would largely be dissipated by the Cold Air from outside.

In Fact I have experience of exactly this `Error of Judgment` from a Client who thought that He would Insulate between the Rafters of His Home prior to then wanting to have a Gas Boiler Installed in the Roof Space - This was NOT suitable - as the Roof Space was still Classified as `Equivalent to Outside Air` regarding Ventilation and Air Temperature.

I am sure that You have all come across Gas Boilers Installed in Roof Spaces - BUT - There are MANY Regulations and Requirements to be fulfilled to enable such Installations to be CORRECT - And the `Outside Air Temperature` Classification means that VERY FEW are `Correctly Installed` - Especially with a view to Installing a High Efficiency Condensing Gas Boiler in a Roof Space.

Unless an Enclosure is Designed and a Boiler that does NOT require Compartment Ventilation is Installed - Installing a Gas Boiler in a Roof Space is NOT to be Recommended - Even doing this there are MANY Regulations to be adhered to regarding Gas Safety / Isolation / Safe Access to the Boiler and Safe Working Platform etc. - A Boiler should NEVER be Installed in an `Open Area` of a Roof Space.

JUST the Simple Requirement of having to Install a Frost Thermostat - which would KEEP causing the Boiler to Fire Up because of the Roof Space Air Temperature would negate any Energy Efficiency of the `High Efficiency` Boiler - And exhibit the `Coldness` of the Roof Space when Insulated between the Rafters.


"Sorry" that I went into FAR TOO MUCH DETAIL - Just to state that Insulating between the Rafters is NOT a suitable Method of Insulating for Heat Loss from the Home - The Details about the Gas Boiler Installation were to `Illustrate` My point.


Chris - Heating Engineer / Gas Installer

 

[chris murphy]

Well firstly thanks chris. i am still (trying) to learn this trade myself and consider myself green. As far as the OSG and the BRB/BGB are concerned its a case of hands in wallet i`m afraid.......

"Hello and Thanks again GLENSPARK",

I thought that I probably would NOT be able to find those references Online - Just as almost ALL of My Professions Reference Material is Copyrighted and unavailable Online - Especially British Standards - An exception to this is the Gas Regulations which are available Online.

British Standards can Cost Hundreds of Pounds !- with even 6 Page Documents costing up to £50.00 !

I realise that we would be paying for the Research that went into formulating these Documents - BUT - As the People who should be putting the Standards into practice in conjunction with relevant Regulations i feel that they should be More Readily Available - As HAS now happened with GasSafe making British Standards Documents available to Registered Gas Installers at `Bundle Prices` on a Subscription Basis - But still quite a Cost to the Self Employed Engineer / Installer.

Thanks Again for your Reply - "Good Luck in your Electrical Career".

Chris

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So what do you think of copanies such as "renotherm" and the like that use a spray on insulation for between the rafters Chris?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

"Hello and Thanks again GLENSPARK",

I thought that I probably would NOT be able to find those references Online - Just as almost ALL of My Professions Reference Material is Copyrighted and unavailable Online - Especially British Standards - An exception to this is the Gas Regulations which are available Online.

British Standards can Cost Hundreds of Pounds !- with even 6 Page Documents costing up to £50.00 !

I realise that we would be paying for the Research that went into formulating these Documents - BUT - As the People who should be putting the Standards into practice in conjunction with relevant Regulations i feel that they should be More Readily Available - As HAS now happened with GasSafe making British Standards Documents available to Registered Gas Installers at `Bundle Prices` on a Subscription Basis - But still quite a Cost to the Self Employed Engineer / Installer.

Thanks Again for your Reply - "Good Luck in your Electrical Career".

Chris

Thank you Chris.
All the best.
Glenn.

 

[GaryM]

Just as almost ALL of My Professions Reference Material is Copyrighted and unavailable Online - Especially British Standards

If you look hard enough you will find and not via torrents etc.
I joined an online library (Manchester) and have access to British Standard which can be viewed and saved though they are encrypted. Well for a short time anyway
However, BS7671 isn't available for download in that particular way.

 

[chris murphy]

So what do you think of copanies such as "renotherm" and the like that use a spray on insulation for between the rafters Chris?

"Hello GLENSPARK",

The main comment that I made which renders Insulating only between the Rafters NOT siutable to Prevent Heat Loss is that the Roof Space Ventilation - Both Purpose Provided / Roof Vents Installed and /OR the Existing `Adventitious Ventilation` from Gaps at the bottom of the Tiles / Slates or from the Soffit causes the Roof Space to have an Air Temperature close to the Outside Air Temperature.

You would still Lose almost the same amount of Heat INTO this Roof Space - which is classified as `Equivilent to Outside Air` regarding the Temperature and Air Changes - for example If calculations for taking Combustion Air for a Gas Appliance from the Roof Space area are carried out - It was sometimes allowable to take Combustion Ventilation for Gas Appliances from Roof Spaces - BUT - Now that High Efficiency Condensing Boilers must be Installed this practice is all but Redundant.

IF Roof Ventilation is present OR it is obvious that `Adventitious Ventilation` is present - Apart from NOT wanting the Roof Ventilation Blocked Off - The Installation of Sheet Material Insulation OR Spraying Insulation between the Rafters could seriously compromise the Ventilation of the Roof Space - Leading to a `Stale Air` situation where condensation causes ROT to appear on the Roof Timbers.

BUT the MAIN reason for NOT Insulating just between the Rafters - leaving a Well Ventilated Roof Space is because the HEAT from the Home will still be LOST INTO the Roof Space.


Chris

 

[chris murphy]

If you look hard enough you will find and not via torrents etc.
I joined an online library (Manchester) and have access to British Standard which can be viewed and saved though they are encrypted. Well for a short time anyway
However, BS7671 isn't available for download in that particular way.

"Hello GaryM",

Thanks for your reply - I may look for an Online Library which might be useful for ANY future Reference on MANY subjects - Thanks for the suggestion.

Chris

 

[Robinson]

Cable Is King ! Agreed with Amp. Check that In of MCB is < you should go wrong. If had done already as home owner i would consider a PIR to clarify these aspects of installation.

 

[Amp David]

Don't see where this is going now. At first thought it was a genuine question. Surely there are enough answers that confirm the worries given by the OP?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

"Hello GLENSPARK",

The main comment that I made which renders Insulating only between the Rafters NOT siutable to Prevent Heat Loss is that the Roof Space Ventilation - Both Purpose Provided / Roof Vents Installed and /OR the Existing `Adventitious Ventilation` from Gaps at the bottom of the Tiles / Slates or from the Soffit causes the Roof Space to have an Air Temperature close to the Outside Air Temperature.

You would still Lose almost the same amount of Heat INTO this Roof Space - which is classified as `Equivilent to Outside Air` regarding the Temperature and Air Changes - for example If calculations for taking Combustion Air for a Gas Appliance from the Roof Space area are carried out - It was sometimes allowable to take Combustion Ventilation for Gas Appliances from Roof Spaces - BUT - Now that High Efficiency Condensing Boilers must be Installed this practice is all but Redundant.

IF Roof Ventilation is present OR it is obvious that `Adventitious Ventilation` is present - Apart from NOT wanting the Roof Ventilation Blocked Off - The Installation of Sheet Material Insulation OR Spraying Insulation between the Rafters could seriously compromise the Ventilation of the Roof Space - Leading to a `Stale Air` situation where condensation causes ROT to appear on the Roof Timbers.

BUT the MAIN reason for NOT Insulating just between the Rafters - leaving a Well Ventilated Roof Space is because the HEAT from the Home will still be LOST INTO the Roof Space.


Chris

so..... all in all Chris such enterprises are a con...?

 

[chris murphy]

Don't see where this is going now. At first thought it was a genuine question. Surely there are enough answers that confirm the worries given by the OP?

"Hello Amp David",


I can assure You that it WAS a Genuine Question - From Me the Original Poster - I don`t know what You are referring to regarding `At first I thought it was a genuine question` ??

IF You are alluding to My Replies to GLENSPARK - Which obviously are `Off Subject` - I was simply Replying to Him to be Courteous - As I hope I would Reply to anyone who addressed ME Directly.

I obviously cannot comment IF You have been irritated by other Members Posting comments on My original Question - or on the responses to that.

In an earlier Post I stated that I had received a couple of Simple Explanations which `put My mind at rest regarding My Relatives Loft Insulation Job` - words to that effect - this comment was to signify that I had all the Information that I needed in Answer to My Question.

One of those Good Answers was from You - "Thank You very much again" for that.

I wanted to respond to your comment to try and find out what you meant ?

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

Don't see where this is going now. At first thought it was a genuine question. Surely there are enough answers that confirm the worries given by the OP?

"Hello Amp David",

Here is My comment to GLENNSPARK when He suggested that I research further and gave Me some reference numbers from the Onsite Guide [IET] :


"Hello GLENSPARK",

Thanks for Posting the References that You noted for Me - I WILL endeavor to research those - As I am Interested in finding out more regarding what I enquired about - Although I think that the `Simple Explanations` that I received have put My mind at rest regarding My Relative`s Home - forthcoming Loft Insulation.



That comment about receiving `Simple Explanations` which `put My mind at rest` was what I referred to in the previous Post as alluding to the situation where My Questions had been Answered.

Regards,

Chris.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

"Hello Amp David",

Here is My comment to GLENSPARK when He suggested that I research further and gave Me some reference numbers from the Onsite Guide [IET] :


"Hello GLENSPARK",

Thanks for Posting the References that You noted for Me - I WILL endeavor to research those - As I am Interested in finding out more regarding what I enquired about - Although I think that the `Simple Explanations` that I received have put My mind at rest regarding My Relative`s Home - forthcoming Loft Insulation.



That comment about receiving `Simple Explanations` which `put My mind at rest` was what I referred to in the previous Post as alluding to the situation where My Questions had been Answered.

Regards,

Chris.

I wouldn`t lose any sleep over it Chris.....theres all manner of folk comes in here.....some with manners....some without........

 

[chris murphy]

I wouldn`t lose any sleep over it Chris.....theres all manner of folk comes in here.....some with manners....some without........

"Hello GLENNSPARK",

I was not trying to be `awkward` regarding My comments to Amp David - Just the opposite - I did NOT want Him to think that My Question was NOT Genuine - As He Helped Me with a Very Simple Explanation regarding the possibility of the Cables Over Heating I wanted to reassure Him that My Question WAS Genuine - And Ask what made Him now think otherwise ?

But Thanks for Your Response - I have just replied to a Question from You regarding the Earthing of Gas Pipes and Water Mains - Where You asked Me about a `Test` - As I am NOT an Electrician I could not answer that.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Guest112]

you sound like a very well spoken genuine polite person chris, your question is definately a genuine question as electricians we do calculate cable sizes accordingly and like it is said after many years of cables being installed companies are going around installing insulation directly on top without thinking about it, and this does affect the maximum permitted current carrying capacity of the cable so definately a fair genuine thread and AmpDavids replys were good answers but his last reply he did forget his manners,

all the best mate

 

[chris murphy]

you sound like a very well spoken genuine polite person chris, your question is definitely a genuine question as electricians we do calculate cable sizes accordingly and like it is said after many years of cables being installed companies are going around installing insulation directly on top without thinking about it, and this does affect the maximum permitted current carrying capacity of the cable so definitely a fair genuine thread and AmpDavids replys were good answers but his last reply he did forget his manners,

all the best mate

"Hello peterdaniels",

Thanks for Your response - I did NOT find Amp David`s Post in any way `Ill Mannered` - I was just a bit confused at WHAT made Him state something like `At first I thought the question was genuine` - And because He Helped Me with a very easy to understand explanation I did NOT want Him to View Me as Posting Questions that are not Genuine.

The LAST THING that I want to do is to Alienate Myself from the VERY Helpful Electrical Experts / Members of this Forum - I don`t want People to have the completely wrong impression about Me / My Posts.

I would really appreciate a Reply from Amp David - So that We can clear up any misunderstanding - "Please".


Regards to All,


Chris

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Its a public forum and anyone is welcome to come in here and ask questions, join in and get involved etc....all and any questions/posts are valuable to this forum so dont think you cant come in here and ask for fear of being ridiculed as the forum members in here aint like that and any nonsense is picked up and dealt with by the moderators n all......so feel free to keep "poping in" to share info and advice wont you Chris....it all counts mate.....
Glenn.

 

[chris murphy]

Its a public forum and anyone is welcome to come in here and ask questions, join in and get involved etc....all and any questions/posts are valuable to this forum so dont think you cant come in here and ask for fear of being ridiculed as the forum members in here aint like that and any nonsense is picked up and dealt with by the moderators n all......so feel free to keep "poping in" to share info and advice wont you Chris....it all counts mate.....
Glenn.

"Thanks very much Glenn" -

I appreciate Your comments and it has been Good corresponding with You - It probably IS our `Off Subject` Posts that have irritated Amp David [?] - Especially as I wrote such LONG Messages to You replying to your Questions about Spray Foam Loft Insulation.

If So I Apologise to Him - "Please accept My Apology Amp David" - But could You Please let Me know IF it WAS My Posts replying to GLENSPARK that caused You to wonder IF My original Question was genuine ? - Because I still cannot see why You might have thought otherwise ?


Regards,

Chris

 

[GLENNSPARK]

"Thanks very much Glenn" -

I appreciate Your comments and it has been Good corresponding with You - It probably IS our `Off Subject` Posts that have irritated Amp David [?] - Especially as I wrote such LONG Messages to You replying to your Questions about Spray Foam Loft Insulation.

If So I Apologise to Him - "Please accept My Apology Amp David" - But could You Please let Me know IF it WAS My Posts replying to GLENSPARK that caused You to wonder IF My original Question was genuine ? - Because I still cannot see why You might have thought otherwise ?


Regards,

Chris

Well there aint such a thing as the "forum superintendant" and the "electrical police" dont exist either...unk:

 

[Guest123]

Well there aint such a thing as the "forum superintendant"

Yes there is.:beatnik:

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Yes there is.:beatnik:

OK Lenny.....good call mate as after i had posted that one i thought to myself...hold on a minute...dont think i got it quite right there...lol........

 

[Zeno]

When totally enclosed by deep insulation a cable has to be derated by 50%, so 1mm T&E is not quite in on a 6A 60898 type B, but but in bungalows and dormer houses 2.5 T&E becomes derated to 13.5A which is a real problem.


We sign to say that our work meets all the Building regulations, when we notify.


The insulating companies dont sign to say their work meets all building regulations, so they are not bothered.


The plumbers and heating guys also dont sign to say their work meets any Building Regulations.


Who agreed to all this for Electricians, the Schemes, they dong give a ****.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello GLENNSPARK",

Please accept My Apology for keep missing the second `N` in GLENNSPARK - I try to ENSURE that I don`t make an Error in someone`s Name or Nom de Plume - But I seem to have missed out the second `N` in yours more often than I typed it !

"Sorry Mate" - I won`t make that mistake again - I did look back on My Posts to You to see if I could Edit the `N` into your Nom de Plume - But the majority I could NOT Edit.

Do You happen to know at what stage [ Days Old ?] the Posts become NOT available to Edit ??

Regards,


Chris

 

[Amp David]

Hello Chris Murphy,

No offence has been taken mate, didn't mean for it to sound that way

 

[chris murphy]

Hello Chris Murphy,

No offence has been taken mate, didn't mean for it to sound that way

"Hello Amp David",

Thank You for replying - As I stated in My Messages to You I did NOT want You to think My Original Question was NOT Genuine.

And "Thanks for your Help" once again.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

When totally enclosed by deep insulation a cable has to be derated by 50%, so 1mm T&E is not quite in on a 6A 60898 type B, but but in bungalows and dormer houses 2.5 T&E becomes derated to 13.5A which is a real problem.


We sign to say that our work meets all the Building regulations, when we notify.


The insulating companies dont sign to say their work meets all building regulations, so they are not bothered.


The plumbers and heating guys also dont sign to say their work meets any Building Regulations.


Who agreed to all this for Electricians, the Schemes, they dong give a ****.

"Hello Zeno",

With regard to your comment that Plumbers and Heating Engineers don`t have to `Sign` that their Work meets Building Regulations etc. :

PLUMBERS:

Almost ALL Works in Plumbing HAVE TO meet the relevant Building Regulations - Self Employed Plumbers either have to be Members of Approved Competent Persons Schemes for BOTH the Water Regulations [Used to be Water Bylaws] AND for the Building Regulations aspects relating to Plumbing / Drainage / Hygiene and then Record / Notify and Certify their Plumbing & Drainage [inc. obviously Waste Water] - OR Their Work HAS TO BE Notified to both the Building Control Department of the Local Authority AND the relevant Water Authority - These Organisations will then Inspect / Supervise compulsary Testing of the Works - Pressure Testing of Copper Pipework and Air Testing of Waste Water / Soil and Drainage - As well as ENSURING that ALL of the Works adhere to EVERY relevant Regulation.

The involvement of the Building Control Department and the Water Authority is Chargeable - and can Cost quite a lot of Money ! - Paid usually by the Client - BUT - NOT something that the Client would want to find out `After the Works` !

ONLY very basic `Like for Like Swaps` are exempt from these requirements - And even then ONLY If there has to be NO Upgrading of Pipework etc. to adhere to New Regulations.


HEATING ENGINEERS:


ALL Heating Engineers who Install Gas Appliances and Pipework HAVE TO be Registered with GasSafe who have taken over from CORGI as the National Gas Installer Registration Organisation.

In order to be Registered they HAVE TO be Assessed on ALL of the aspects of Gas Work that they carry out - This is a 5 Yearly process and they also HAVE TO renew their Registration on a Yearly basis.

There are also GasSafe Inspections carried out on Sample Jobs by GasSafe Inspectors to ensure that Gas Installers are carrying out their work correctly and adhering to ALL relevant Regulations.

Heating Engineers carry out Safety Inspections / Landlords Inspections on Gas Appliances and Pipework and Issue Certificates for ALL of the Gas Appliances that they Install - as well as Notifying these Gas Appliances to GasSafe on the basis that the Heating Engineer is of `An Approved Class of Person` who can Inspect and Certify Gas Installations and Appliances.

This Notification / Certification is INSTEAD OF Inspections by the Building Control Department - And can ONLY be carried out by REGISTERED GAS INSTALLERS - MANY of who are Heating Engineers.

I have deliberately commented on Self Employed Plumbers and Heating Engineers here - because obviously those working for Companies would have the Companies Notifying and Certifying the Works / Contracts.

Just a few comments to allay the impression that `Plumbers and Heating Engineers do NOT `Sign For` their Work`.

I am NOT trying to be argumentive here Zeno - just trying to show - Briefly - The Plumber & Heating Engineers Viewpoint.

Regards,

Chris - Heating - Plumbing and Gas Installer

 

[Zeno]

Hi Chris, yes I agree that what you have described is what should happen, I was commenting on what is really happening.

My comments about Gas Safe were that registering a job with Gas Safe, did not mean you were registering that the whole job that you have done, meets the Building Regulations.
Also the number of plumbers in schemes or notifying direct is very low, which is not surprising when they can look at what the Electrical Part P guys have to put up with.
.

LABC have issues with it as well,
“LABC has issues about the current gas safety regime, namely that its notifications do not ensure Building Regulation compliance.”

“Traders sending in notifications are not necessarily competent or part of a recognised Competent Persons Scheme (CPS), therefore, notifications cannot automatically be accepted by Building Control. “

-------------------------------

“However, LABC believes the Part P schemes would work better if electricity, like gas, required mandatory membership of a scheme.”

Well the Schemes would agree with that lucrative idea, but being a member of a Scheme does not provide Competence.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Zeno",

This reply is NOT meant to be pedantic.

There is a comment in your Post that I cannot agree with:


“Traders sending in notifications are not necessarily competent or part of a recognised Competent Persons Scheme (CPS), therefore, notifications cannot automatically be accepted by Building Control. “



My disagreement is this:

ONLY Members of a recognised Competent Persons scheme can Notify their Work - VIA whichever scheme they are a Member of - And ALL of the schemes are Recognised by the Building Control Departments - Country Wide - It was the Department of Communities and Local Government that Licensed all of the various Competent Persons Schemes.

If Tradesmen are NOT registered with one of the Approved Competent Persons schemes relating to their Trade - Which would now be Unusual - I would have thought - Because these Schemes are the ONLY Way to be able to Notify your Work and Certify that the Work DOES comply with all relevant Building Regulations - They would then have to Apply in advance of carrying out the Works [For a lot of Building Works] - Often having to Submit Drawings and a Schedule of Plumbing / Heating / Sanitaryware & Taps etc. - to the Building Control Department of the Local Authority - Although sometimes this is done by a Building Contractor or Surveyor / Architect - Or the Client.

If done by a Person who is NOT Specifying the Plumbing Materials, Heating Equipment - Sanitaryware - Taps etc. then the Tradesman will obviously have prior involvement in Itemising these Materials for submission to Building Control.

Building Control will then be involved in ALL Aspects of the Works and Charge accordingly - These Charges can be a VERY Expensive `Additional Cost` - The Charges can DEFINITELY be the difference in whether a `Non Registered with a Competent Persons Scheme` Tradesman Wins a Job - OR Whether the Tradesman who IS Registered with a Competent Persons Scheme and CAN Notify their Works - resulting in the Client being Sent Certificates of Compliance with the Building Regulations - Which as You know are often required when People Sell their Properties - Even more so since the Scrapping of the Home Information Packs.


Your comment about People Notifying Works which do NOT comply with all the relevant Building Regulations WILL obviously have some validity - BUT - As Members of the relevant Competent Persons Schemes they ARE Signing Off their Works as `Fully Compliant` - As in any Works that are carried out and then `Self Inspected` / Notified by the Tradesperson themselves there WILL be Unscrupulous People who will `Cut Corners` when working.

When a GasSafe Registered Installer Notifies a Gas Appliance they state / certify verbally that the Gas Appliance has been Installed in FULL Compliance with the Manufacturers Instructions - Gas Safety Regulations AND the relevant Building Regulations which apply to the Installation of that category / Type of Gas Appliance.

Also I would be very interested to know where You found the Information that Very Few Plumbers are Members of Competent Persons Schemes - NOT that I don`t believe what You stated - I would just like to find out about that - could you perhaps send Me some reference details in a Private Message - IF You would rather NOT Post those details - "Thanks".

"Thanks for Your Reply Zeno".


Chris

 

[Zeno]

Hi Chris, my information about compliance with building regulations comes from LABC.
The original has moved but a copy is here, Article

LABC has issues about the current gas safety regime, namely that its notifications do not ensure Building Regulation compliance. Traders sending in notifications are not necessarily competent or part of a recognised Competent Persons Scheme (CPS), therefore, notifications cannot automatically be accepted by Building Control. However, LABC believes the Part P schemes would work better if electricity, like gas, required mandatory membership of a scheme.

 

[chris murphy]

Hi Chris, my information about compliance with building regulations comes from LABC.
The original has moved but a copy is here, Article

LABC has issues about the current gas safety regime, namely that its notifications do not ensure Building Regulation compliance. Traders sending in notifications are not necessarily competent or part of a recognised Competent Persons Scheme (CPS), therefore, notifications cannot automatically be accepted by Building Control. However, LABC believes the Part P schemes would work better if electricity, like gas, required mandatory membership of a scheme.

"Hello Zeno",

Thanks for the link to the Article - I wrote a detailed reply to You on Sunday Night - BUT when I went to Submit it I LOST IT ! - This KEEPS happening on here [to Me] - I should Copy & Paste My Posts BEFORE Submitting them - but as this only seems to happen on this Forum [to Me] - I don`t always remember.

When I DO Copy & Paste My Text elsewhere the Post Submits with no problems - on the occassions when I forget to do that - I LOSE the Post !

As it was 23:05 on Sunday Night when this happened - I cannot bring Myself to Re-Compose and Re-Type the Message to You that took Me about 20 - 30 Minutes [ 2 Finger Typist] - I will Post an Answer during the Week.

I hope that you will understand - losing the `detailed` Post has irritated Me - I will wait until I am Calm and try to remember what I wrote.


I have Posted this Zeno so that You could see that I had NOT Ignored Your Reply to Me.


Regards,


Chris

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Zeno",

Thanks for the link to the Article - I wrote a detailed reply to You on Sunday Night - BUT when I went to Submit it I LOST IT ! - This KEEPS happening on here [to Me] - I should Copy & Paste My Posts BEFORE Submitting them - but as this only seems to happen on this Forum [to Me] - I don`t always remember.

When I DO Copy & Paste My Text elsewhere the Post Submits with no problems - on the occasions when I forget to do that - I LOSE the Post !

As it was 23:05 on Sunday Night when this happened - I cannot bring Myself to Re-Compose and Re-Type the Message to You that took Me about 20 - 30 Minutes [ 2 Finger Typist] - I will Post an Answer during the Week.

I hope that you will understand - losing the `detailed` Post has irritated Me - I will wait until I am Calm and try to remember what I wrote.


I have Posted this Zeno so that You could see that I had NOT Ignored Your Reply to Me.


Regards,


Chris

"Hello Again Zeno",

I hope that You won`t mind if I don`t try to remember what I wrote in My `Lost` Post of Sunday - I probably went into far too much detail anyway.

To make it short - and I have written this previously - I can`t understand how the Local Authority Building Control Departments can be stating that some People who are `Notifying` Gas Appliance Installations are `NOT Members of a Competent Persons Scheme` - As GasSafe when they Notify the LABC on behalf of the Registered Gas Installer ARE the Competent Persons Scheme for Gas Installers.

When Gas Installers Notify their Installations of Gas Appliances to GasSafe - because of their Gas ACS Assessment Categories / Registrations the Gas Installer is `An Approved Person` to be Installing Gas Appliances - To Comply with ALL Relevant Gas Regulations - Manufacturers Instructions AND Building Regulations.

I really don`t know what the statement in there Article from the LABC`s means - in light of the above information - GasSafe is THE ONLY `Competent Persons Scheme` for GAS.

IF the Article had stated that they have found Gas Appliance Installations where some Building Regulations had NOT been adhered to for Work that had been Notified to the LABC by GasSafe - that would be a different matter - I am certain that there would be Gas Appliance Installations where that is the case.

Human Nature means that there will always be People who don`t adhere to the Regulations - However Qualified / Registered / Knowledgeable they are.


Regards,


Chris