Design of consumer units for amendment 3

[Leesparkykent]

[PDF]Design Range of Consumer Units - Hager
www.hager.co.uk/files/download/0/12240_1/0/ConsumerUnit.pdf
Guidance from BEAMA (British Electrotechnical and Allied Manufacturers Association) who represent the UK ... minimise flames from escaping a consumer unit in the event of a fire. ... Annex ZB. ...... and (Annex ZA 16kA conditional).

look at the label in then DB page 10 lol! But I do like the cable clamp for the tails entering the main switch page 11.

 

[Guest666]

These look good. Very good. I particularly like the tails connection kit on page 23.

 

[Leesparkykent]

These look good. Very good. I particularly like the tails connection kit on page 23.

I didn't see that, does look good!

 

[Guest666]

It does look as if Hager have actually listened to electricians when designing these boards. I wonder if the figures will stack up. Saying that Hager have always been competitive.

 

[Engineer54]

These look good. Very good. I particularly like the tails connection kit on page 23.

Can't see the point of it myself, if anything it's just adding another connection point that can become a potential problem!! The tails strain relief clamp is a worthwhile feature though....

 

[R G]

Is there any mention of square grommets to fit the holes , and are these holes to be sealed once the cables installed , I like the clamp arrangement , would also be good if they supplied a db schedule that sticks to the inside of the door ...

 

[Guest666]

Can't see the point of it myself, if anything it's just adding another connection point that can become a potential problem!! The tails strain relief clamp is a worthwhile feature though....

I like it because it avoids the need to bend the tails 180 degress.

 

[davesparks]

Is there any mention of square grommets to fit the holes , and are these holes to be sealed once the cables installed , I like the clamp arrangement , would also be good if they supplied a db schedule that sticks to the inside of the door ...

Use grommet strip on the square holes
Why would the holes around the cables need to be sealed?

 

[Guest666]

Exactly. The distribution board only need to be made from non-combustable material. So, it won't in itself catch fire. If it does not catch fire it won't matter about the holes as it will self-extinguish.

 

[R G]

Use grommet strip on the square holes
Why would the holes around the cables need to be sealed?

Not sure if this amendment 3 would also mean sealing the void around the cable entries , i.e. in the rear knockouts , also grommet strip is o/k on the larger oval holes in rear but for it to stay in place on the square knock outs is something else , a grommet pack supplied would be better

 

[davesparks]

Not sure if this amendment 3 would also mean sealing the void around the cable entries , i.e. in the rear knockouts , also grommet strip is o/k on the larger oval holes in rear but for it to stay in place on the square knock outs is something else , a grommet pack supplied would be better

They will require no more sealing than they do under the current version

 

[R G]

With the grommet pack in mind these could be blind and would help in both respects , also its a bit pointless making a M/C board to contain any possibility of a fire with such a large rear knockout IMHO, again large oval blind grommets to fit the holes would at least help in some way...

 

[Leesparkykent]

With the grommet pack in mind these could be blind and would help in both respects , also its a bit pointless making a M/C board to contain any possibility of a fire with such a large rear knockout IMHO, again large oval blind grommets to fit the holes would at least help in some way...

And then mount the DB on a bit of chipboard also lol

 

[davesparks]

With the grommet pack in mind these could be blind and would help in both respects , also its a bit pointless making a M/C board to contain any possibility of a fire with such a large rear knockout IMHO, again large oval blind grommets to fit the holes would at least help in some way...

Who's making metal boards to contain fire? It's certainly not required under ammendment 3, that merely requires the board to be manufactured from a non combustible material not that it forms a fire sealed enclosure or anything like that

 

[Leesparkykent]

1. What is a definition of non-combustible?
There is no published definition for ‘non-combustible’ that aligns with the intent of regulation 421.1.201. Ferrous metal is deemed to be one example of a non-combustible material that meets the intent of the regulation.


2. What constitutes a ‘non-combustible enclosure’?
A non-combustible enclosure includes base, cover, door and any components e.g. hinges, covers, screws and catches, necessary to maintain fire containment. See diagram 1. Blanks and devices are contained within the non-combustible enclosure.

and as for cable entry's.

3. How is account taken of cable entries into a ‘non-combustible enclosure’ with respect to containment of internal fire and escape of flames?
Good workmanship and proper materials must be applied by the installer. The cable installation entry method shall, as far as is reasonably practicable, maintain the fire containment of the enclosure. Account shall be taken of the manufacturers instructions, if any.

 

[Guest666]

Non-combustible material” means material that does not burn or give off flammable vapours in sufficient quantity for self- ignition when heated to 750°C

 

[Guest666]

So in effect the distribution board will not catch fire itself if there is a fire started inside the distribution board.

 

[R G]

I can see different manufacturers will have their own interpretations and supply what they think is right , I heard the mention of wiska glands being used by some , I and others will just see what happens when it comes to it ...

 

[davesparks]

1. What is a definition of non-combustible?
There is no published definition for ‘non-combustible’ that aligns with the intent of regulation 421.1.201. Ferrous metal is deemed to be one example of a non-combustible material that meets the intent of the regulation.


2. What constitutes a ‘non-combustible enclosure’?
A non-combustible enclosure includes base, cover, door and any components e.g. hinges, covers, screws and catches, necessary to maintain fire containment. See diagram 1. Blanks and devices are contained within the non-combustible enclosure.

and as for cable entry's.

3. How is account taken of cable entries into a ‘non-combustible enclosure’ with respect to containment of internal fire and escape of flames?
Good workmanship and proper materials must be applied by the installer. The cable installation entry method shall, as far as is reasonably practicable, maintain the fire containment of the enclosure. Account shall be taken of the manufacturers instructions, if any.

Care to cite your references for that? Is it something the IET has published or is it a third party's interpretation/opinion?

 

[davesparks]

Non-combustible material” means material that does not burn or give off flammable vapours in sufficient quantity for self- ignition when heated to 750°C

Can you cite a reference for that?

 

[Guest666]

I can see different manufacturers will have their own interpretations and supply what they think is right , I heard the mention of wiska glands being used by some , I and others will just see what happens when it comes to it ...

The new amendment mentions nothing about cable entries into distribution boards over what has already been in previous versions of BS7671.

 

[Guest666]

Can you cite a reference for that?

Google lol.

Non-combustible material is a phrase used in many other industries long before the 3rd amendment was written.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Care to cite your references for that? Is it something the IET has published or is it a third party's interpretation/opinion?

The link in the OP.

 

[davesparks]

Google lol.

Non-combustible material is a phrase used in many other industries long before the 3rd amendment was written.

Yes if is a phrase used in many industries, but that doesn't mean their definitions if it can be applied to bs7671.

 

[davesparks]

The link in the OP.

So a third party and highly biased interpretation from a company which stands to profit from it. Not exactly the best source of useful information is it?

 

[Guest666]

Yes if is a phrase used in many industries, but that doesn't mean their definitions if it can be applied to bs7671.

I really don't think they are going to change the meaning of English words though.

Is is this better from the Oxford dictionary:

Made of material that does not burn if exposed to fire; incombustible.

 

[Leesparkykent]

So a third party and highly biased interpretation from a company which stands to profit from it. Not exactly the best source of useful information is it?

I don't understand what you are getting at TBH? I find the new reg about noncombustible DB's a load of bollox IMO. I just pointed out what 1 manufacturers stance was on the situation.

 

[R G]

So a third party and highly biased interpretation from a company which stands to profit from it. Not exactly the best source of useful information is it?

Well thats what we are discussing isn't it , thats what the op has posted ..lol...

 

[Redvanman]

I like the look of the Hagar boards.
I do believe they come with grommet strips (could be wrong).
They are made to be able to use different size trunking with the knock outs so that satisfies the IP issues and as said previously there is no provision needed to make the entries "fire sealed" as this is not mentioned in the new regulations.
Leesparky states the Beema reference which makes it clear what needs to be made and installed.
Also the cable clamps only come with the 30 version I think (could be wrong again) but sure it could be used in the 10 version.
The tails kit are great, used them for ages but it looks like they will not be used in the new boards.

 

[davesparks]

I really don't think they are going to change the meaning of English words though.

Is is this better from the Oxford dictionary:

Made of material that does not burn if exposed to fire; incombustible.

That's no specific enough for this application of the phrase, the temperature the material is going to be exposed to needs to be defined.
Steel will burn if exposed to fire of sufficient temperature,

 

[Guest666]

I really don't think they are going to change the meaning of English words though.

Is is this better from the Oxford dictionary:

Made of material that does not burn if exposed to fire; incombustible.

That's no specific enough for this application of the phrase, the temperature the material is going to be exposed to needs to be defined.
Steel will burn if exposed to fire of sufficient temperature,

no, fire MIGHT cause steel to oxidize, depending on the alloy, but think of steel as a block of ice. Steel melts at 2800 degrees F and boils and evaporates at 5400 degrees. Some metals like magnesium can possibly catch fire but not steel

The IEE cannot just redefine the English language.

 

[davesparks]

no, fire MIGHT cause steel to oxidize, depending on the alloy, but think of steel as a block of ice. Steel melts at 2800 degrees F and boils and evaporates at 5400 degrees. Some metals like magnesium can possibly catch fire but not steel

The IEE cannot just redefine the English language.

Leave steel in a forge for too long and it will be burning when you pull it out.

 

[shanky887614]

Yes if is a phrase used in many industries, but that doesn't mean their definitions if it can be applied to bs7671.

its a british standard mate, it over rules bs7671 as bs7671 is a guide and not statutory

 

[davesparks]

its a british standard mate, it over rules bs7671 as bs7671 is a guide and not statutory

wtf do you think the bs in bs7671 stands for?

 

[shanky887614]

wtf do you think the bs in bs7671 stands for?

the regs book is a guide not law.

like you bull$hit (british standarda obviously)

 

[Anthony S]

I don't understand what you are getting at TBH? I find the new reg about noncombustible DB's a load of bollox IMO. I just pointed out what 1 manufacturers stance was on the situation.

Your not allowed mate lol

 

[davesparks]

the regs book is a guide not law.

like you bull$hit (british standarda obviously)

Right so your post at 33 is a nonsense, you said a British standard overrules another British standard due to the fact British standards are non statutory.

 

[Guest666]

Leave steel in a forge for too long and it will be burning when you pull it out.

But we are talking about a consumer unit????

 

[Leesparkykent]

Your not allowed mate lol

Obviously not lol, I now know for future reference haha.

 

[davesparks]

But we are talking about a consumer unit????

We are talking about a regulation which requires a non-combustible material, but offers no definition of non-combustible.

 

[Guest666]

We are talking about a regulation which requires a non-combustible material, but offers no definition of non-combustible.

Why do you need BS7671 to tell you the definition of a well used English word? Non-combustible means a material that does not ignite itself when a flame is in contact with it. I think you are joking now. Lol.

 

[HandySparks]

Why do you need BS7671 to tell you the definition of a well used English word? Non-combustible means a material that does not ignite itself when a flame is in contact with it. I think you are joking now. Lol.

Quite a nice little explanation and demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubop-51dJjg

 

[davesparks]

Why do you need BS7671 to tell you the definition of a well used English word? Non-combustible means a material that does not ignite itself when a flame is in contact with it. I think you are joking now. Lol.

I am not joking.
Language by it's very nature is constantly evolving and subject to regional variations and interpretation. Different dictionaries will give different definitions of the same word.

 

[Guest666]

Quite a nice little explanation and demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubop-51dJjg

The steel wool exercise illustrates the principle on metal so thin that the heat provided by a candle allows for oxidization with the oxygen present in the atmosphere.

 

[Guest666]

I am not joking.
Language by it's very nature is constantly evolving and subject to regional variations and interpretation. Different dictionaries will give different definitions of the same word.

We are talking about the English language not regional dialect or slang. Yes language evolves. So has this thread.

 

[davesparks]

The steel wool exercise illustrates the principle on metal so thin that the heat provided by a candle allows for oxidization with the oxygen present in the atmosphere.

You didn't give any limits on the thickness of the material in your definition of non-combustible so that must count as proof that steel is combustible by your definition surely?

 

[spark 68]

It is entirely the fault of the IET for this half-arsed badly thought out reg.

On one hand they were saying this amd was to harmonise with other international standards and Europe, okay so far if that was what is meant...

Then they ignore one international standard completely (glow wire test) because it does not fit their narrative, then we find this particular reg has a 200 suffix, which means it is a UK only reg, so much for harmonising with Europe then!, oh! and for good measure we will delay the implementation of said BS (Bull $hit ) for another year, you could not make this S*it up if you tried lol.

 

[Leesparkykent]

It is entirely the fault of the IET for this half-arsed badly thought out reg.

On one hand they were saying this amd was to harmonise with other international standards and Europe, okay so far if that was what is meant...

Then they ignore one international standard completely (glow wire test) because it does not fit their narrative, then we find this particular reg has a 200 suffix, which means it is a UK only reg, so much for harmonising with Europe then!, oh! and for good measure we will delay the implementation of said BS (Bull $hit ) for another year, you could not make this S*it up if you tried lol.

spot on lol