Downlights for flammable surfaces

[Pretty Mouth]

Can anyone recommend a downlight that is suitable for installation in a flammable ceiling?

My client would like one fitted in a UPVC clad porch ceiling, and the downlights I usually fit (Aurora EFD Pro's) aren't suitable for this. Struggling to find easily accessible manufacturer's info on this.

 

[telectrix]

most integrated units will comply as a numpty can't retrofit with halogens.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

most integrated units will comply as a numpty can't retrofit with halogens.

This is what I figured, many of them being of plastic construction anyway. Still, really hard to find manufacturers' info on this.

Thanks Tel

 

[Mikegh]

The "fire rated " means they reinstate the fire barrier after drilling the hole

Isn't it the F mark in the triangle that means they're suitable for mounting on a flammable surface ?

 

[brianmoooore]

Isn't it the F mark in the triangle that means they're suitable for mounting on a flammable surface ?

That's correct, but not all suitable fittings will have it.

 

[Mikegh]

Robus Fire Rated Warm White LED Fixed Downlight - White

Utilising 2 best selling products, the 5W=50W LED GU10 spotlight and Robus' high quality fire rated downlight, are together under one easy code.Save over £180* over the lifetime of this productRecessed fire rated downlights with white bezelPressed steel body with die-cast aluminium bezelFixed...

www.lyco.co.uk

So those are fire rated and also carry the F mark according to the spec

LAP CosmosEco Fixed Fire Rated LED Downlight Contractor Pack Matt White 5.5W 500lm 10 Pack

Order online at Screwfix.ie. Quick, tool-free installation due to the 4-way push fit screwless terminal block. Excellent light distribution due to clear acrylic prismatic optic lens. Ideal for domestic use. Matt white finish. Thousands of products. Choose from top trade brands.

www.screwfix.ie

These on Screwfix are fire rated but the q+a says not suitable for flammable surface

 

[westward10]

In no way is the cladding flammable but it may be combustible. The chances of a downlight generating sufficient heat that the material releases gasses which is the combustible component of the product is extremely low. Modern cladding is manufactured so it doesn't promote the spread of fire.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Robus Fire Rated Warm White LED Fixed Downlight - White

Utilising 2 best selling products, the 5W=50W LED GU10 spotlight and Robus' high quality fire rated downlight, are together under one easy code.Save over £180* over the lifetime of this productRecessed fire rated downlights with white bezelPressed steel body with die-cast aluminium bezelFixed...

www.lyco.co.uk

So those are fire rated and also carry the F mark according to the spec

LAP CosmosEco Fixed Fire Rated LED Downlight Contractor Pack Matt White 5.5W 500lm 10 Pack

Order online at Screwfix.ie. Quick, tool-free installation due to the 4-way push fit screwless terminal block. Excellent light distribution due to clear acrylic prismatic optic lens. Ideal for domestic use. Matt white finish. Thousands of products. Choose from top trade brands.

www.screwfix.ie

These on Screwfix are fire rated but the q+a says not suitable for flammable surface

Thanks. I don't think fire rated is necessary in this instance, but a nice-to-have. Surprised that that one has the F mark, it is GU10 so halogens could be used in it, which I assumed would be a problem

 

[Pretty Mouth]

In no way is the cladding flammable but it may be combustible. The chances of a downlight generating sufficient heat that the material releases gasses which is the combustible component of the product is extremely low. Modern cladding is manufactured so it doesn't promote the spread of fire.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference? The internet dictionary definitions I have looked at seem to used the words interchangeably.

 

[Mikegh]

Flammables ignite at lower temps seems to be the difference

According to Google anyhow

 

[Mikegh]

Funnily enough i remember testing that pvc type cladding myself for flammability

I can't remember the exact context but was a work related experiment

 

[westward10]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference? The internet dictionary definitions I have looked at seem to used the words interchangeably.

I do a lot of fire risk assessments and the difference is important. An easy way to see is petrol and diesel, people would assume they are both flammable but only petrol can be described as such. Petrol in its liquid state will not burn it is not possible it is the vapour which burns vapour which is readily given off at most temperatures hence it is flammable. Diesel is combustible as it needs to be produced for want of a better word for it to vaporize in other words it must be heated, throw a match a diesel nothing happens but throw a match at petrol and the vapours will ignite.
Chip pan fires are a good example of a combustible source, the oil once at sufficient temperature will vaporize from the pan to the naked gas flame. Liquids do not burn as there is an absence of oxygen, one of the elements required for ignition it is only once vaporization takes place and it mixes with oxygen you can get a fire. Fuel, heat and oxygen remove any one of these and the fire is extinguished and this is the principle of fire suppression.
Solids such as plastic and wood are all combustible because a process must first take place to release the gases.

 

[pirate]

Just saying, I put a bunch of these in recently, due to the low profile. They are very nice, imho.

8W LED 120mm Downlight White 4000K

Ideal for retro-fit of existing CFL fittings

www.cef.co.uk

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I do a lot of fire risk assessments and the difference is important. An easy way to see is petrol and diesel, people would assume they are both flammable but only petrol can be described as such. Petrol in its liquid state will not burn it is not possible it is the vapour which burns vapour which is readily given off at most temperatures hence it is flammable. Diesel is combustible as it needs to be produced for want of a better word for it to vaporize in other words it must be heated, throw a match a diesel nothing happens but throw a match at petrol and the vapours will ignite.
Chip pan fires are a good example of a combustible source, the oil once at sufficient temperature will vaporize from the pan to the naked gas flame. Liquids do not burn as there is an absence of oxygen, one of the elements required for ignition it is only once vaporization takes place and it mixes with oxygen you can get a fire. Fuel, heat and oxygen remove any one of these and the fire is extinguished and this is the principle of fire suppression.
Solids such as plastic and wood are all combustible because a process must first take place to release the gases.

Thanks for this very detailed reply @westward10 . There is still a question mark hovering in my mind though - what, in the context of fitting downlights, would be considered a flammable material? Would this be polystyrene ceiling tiles for example?

 

[westward10]

Thanks for this very detailed reply @westward10 . There is still a question mark hovering in my mind though - what, in the context of fitting downlights, would be considered a flammable material? Would this be polystyrene ceiling tiles for example?

Again they are combustible. I think when it comes to building materials flammable is not going to be an issue they would just not be used.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Again they are combustible. I think when it comes to building materials flammable is not going to be an issue they would just not be used.

Now I'm even more confused. So when a downlight has the 'F' symbol with a cross through it, it actually means it shouldn't be installed in a combustible material (as opposed to flammable)?

 

[Mikegh]

Looks that way to me

"Carrying an 'F' mark, this fitting can be mounted onto a normally flammable surface, which includes standard building materials such as plasterboard, masonry and wood. Easily flammable surfaces such as polystyrene are incompatible."


Seems according to the description and the above discussion that F means suitable for combustible .but not flammable ie: polystyrene

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Looks that way to me

"Carrying an 'F' mark, this fitting can be mounted onto a normally flammable surface, which includes standard building materials such as plasterboard, masonry and wood. Easily flammable surfaces such as polystyrene are incompatible."


Seems according to the description and the above discussion that F means suitable for combustible .but not flammable ie: polystyrene

Makes sense. Thanks @Mikegh