UK Gas Cooker conked and electrical cooker replacement

[Avo Mk8]

It is 2.3KW and wondering if it will be okay considering the current ring setup

To me it looks a good option for the oven, especially since the manufacturer's instructions say to connect it to the exact type of connection you have. I did suggest 2.2kW max, but 0.1kW over is not going to make a material difference in this scenario. I hear what Telectrix says, but from a pragmatic point of view 2.3kW will not overload the accessory or the cable.

That model has a grill and a fan oven. I believe the oven element is 1.8kW. Even when you have both grill and oven on, the oven element will soon switch itself off after a few minutes when the oven reaches temperature, so the average current draw will be very modest.
Even with 5 people in the kitchen, there's a limit to how many hours of toasting you can do continuously!
And if microwaving, it won't be on full power for long unless you're trying to set fire to the food!
And the same applies to the kettle - everyone can have their cup-a-soup several times over before the circuit feels a thing!
I really think your average consumption, even with all the appliances being used, will not exceed, probably won't even come close to, the rating of the circuit.

There are many people with a washing machine, tumble dryer, dishwasher in their kitchen as well as all the other appliances. Those are not present in your situation I believe. Aware of the regs, but just trying to add a note of pragmatism here

 

[advicewelcom]

To me it looks a good option for the oven, especially since the manufacturer's instructions say to connect it to the exact type of connection you have. I did suggest 2.2kW max, but 0.1kW over is not going to make a material difference in this scenario. I hear what Telectrix says, but from a pragmatic point of view 2.3kW will not overload the accessory.

That model has a grill and a fan oven. I believe the oven element is 1.8kW. Even when you have both grill and oven on, the oven element will soon switch itself off after a few minutes when the oven reaches temperature, so the average current draw will be very modest.
Even with 5 people in the kitchen, there's a limit to how many hours of toasting you can do continuously!
And if microwaving, it won't be on full power for long unless you're trying to set fire to the food!
And the same applies to the kettle - everyone can have their cup-a-soup several times over before the circuit feels a thing!
I really think your average consumption, even with all the appliances being used, will not exceed, probably won't even come close to, the rating of the circuit.

There are many people with a washing machine, tumble dryer, dishwasher in their kitchen as well as all the other appliances. Those are not present in your situation I believe. Aware of the regs, but just trying to add a note of pragmatism here

Oh Crumbs. Good point....

Just remembered I have a Washing Machine & Dryer (Hotpoint RD 966 J) in the kitchen and checked its on the same ring(!!)

So we have...

?? KW - some kitchen sockets hardly used
Low KW? - Gas Hob
1.7 kW - microwave
0.5 KW - fridge freezer
2.0 kW - kettle
1.2 KW - toaster
?? KW - Hotpoint Washer & Dryer RD 966 J
2.3 KW - new BEKO potential oven

Is the advice still that its an okay to add this oven to the same ring?

As per above I understand that upgrading the Hager thingy-ma-jig fuse cartridge from 32Amps is not going to make a difference.

Just have some elderly people in the house and they would not be able to sort a trip so have to do everything to avoid that.

Welcome any pointers as just don't to be stuck with an flippin' tripping oven.

(Oven returns policy means they won't take it back if switched on so can't really test it beforehand).

 

[Avo Mk8]

Oh Crumbs. Good point....

Just remembered I have a Washing Machine & Dryer (Hotpoint RD 966 J) in the kitchen and checked its on the same ring(!!)
Welcome any pointers as just don't to be stuck with an flippin' tripping oven.

(Oven returns policy means they won't take it back if switched on so can't really test it beforehand).

Hotpoint RD 966 is 1.85kW
If an electrician was designing your kitchen circuit knowing what we now know, he would provide 2 rings, or at least a separate cooker feed.

If it were my house, and I was living there, I confess I would probably put the cooker on the ring, and use the knowledge that it's not wise to run everything at once. But I'm not suggesting you do that

With others living there, particularly if elderly or vulnerable, needs to be handled properly. Back to gas or a separate circuit?

Afterthought - is there by any chance an adjacent room with another ring, the other side of a kitchen wall? Was just thinking a spur off a different circuit could feed say the washer, alleviating the load on the kitchen circuit, so you could possibly proceed as before

 

[advicewelcom]

Gosh, there is not much chance of a dedicated wire as no slots on the fuse board even if I could run a dedicated cable to the board.

So far, we have the below...
?? KW - some kitchen sockets hardly used
Low KW? - Gas Hob
1.7 kW - microwave
0.5 KW - fridge freezer
2.0 kW - kettle
1.2 KW - toaster
1.85 KW - Hotpoint Washer & Dryer RD 966 J
2.3 KW - new BEKO potential oven

With the above I assume a 2.0KW oven wouldn’t make much of a difference would it?? Just to understand how the trip risk changes with KW change?

I suppose the washing machine drying function would take a lot more energy then just the washing machine washing clothes (as they tend to be energy efficient)? So a house rule not to run the oven when drying clothes – would that work considering what is on the circuit presently?

Afterthought - is there by any chance an adjacent room with another ring, the other side of a kitchen wall? Was just thinking a spur off a different circuit could feed say the washer, alleviating the load on the kitchen circuit, so you could possibly proceed as before

Actually, above the washing machine there is a gas boiler (Vailant Turbomax VUW 282 E – 28KW), on a separate circuit shared with a hive system and a couple of sockets next to it which goes to a Hager 20A fuse (pics attached). I assume a gas boiler does not have much elecy draw? Would it be relatively easy to get the washing machine wired into that system/spur if it trips the main ring circuit?

 

[Avo Mk8]

Gosh, there is not much chance of a dedicated wire as no slots on the fuse board even if I could run a dedicated cable to the board.

if you prefer Amps:
?? - some kitchen sockets hardly used (so far ignored)
ignore! - Gas Hob
7A - microwave
2A - fridge freezer
8.3A - kettle
5A - toaster
7.7A - Hotpoint Washer & Dryer RD 966 J
9.6A new BEKO potential oven

So without your new oven, max possible current in kitchen circuit, ignoring sockets hardly used (which we should not) is 30A, which is the limit for the circuit. The reality is that "diversity" means actual instantaneous load would be less.

I suppose the washing machine drying function would take a lot more energy then just the washing machine washing clothes (as they tend to be energy efficient)? So a house rule not to run the oven when drying clothes – would that work considering what is on the circuit presently?

The machine consumption figure includes drying. If you have a "house rule" it might avoid tripping, but it doesn't make the circuit design correct.

Actually, above the washing machine there is a gas boiler (Vailant Turbomax VUW 282 E – 28KW), on a separate circuit shared with a hive system and a couple of sockets next to it which goes to a Hager 20A fuse (pics attached).

Possibly a 20A radial which it would be good to get confirmed by an electrician.

I assume a gas boiler does not have much elecy draw? Would it be relatively easy to get the washing machine wired into that system/spur if it trips the main ring circuit?

Yes boiler power requirement very modest. Conceivably if you could plug about 9 amps worth of load there, you'd be "OK".
What's plugged in it already? Anything on the list !? If that's the washing machine below, could you plug that in?

Up to the point you made me aware of the washing machine, I felt comfortable that cable current would not be exceeded for "long periods" (433.1.204), but now with the washing machine and oven included you are into overload and tripping territory.

This is an uncomfortably borderline situation. Anyone here on the side of pragmatism?

 

[advicewelcom]

The machine consumption figure includes drying. If you have a "house rule" it might avoid tripping, but it doesn't make the circuit design correct.
Possibly a 20A radial which it would be good to get confirmed by an electrician.Yes boiler power requirement very modest. Conceivably if you could plug about 9 amps worth of load there, you'd be "OK".What's plugged in it already? Anything on the list !? If that's the washing machine below, could you plug that in?

Kitchen Circuit 1: 32A
ignore A - some kitchen sockets hardly used
ignore A - Gas Hob
7A - microwave
2A - fridge freezer
8.3A - kettle
5A - toaster
7.7A - Hotpoint Washer & Dryer RD 966 J
Total so far = 30A
9.6A - New BEKO oven
Total of all = 39.6A

If you had Fridge, Washing machine, Oven on at the same time 19.3A - leaves space for a kettle, but could trip if you have kettle and microwave going?

Can’t I just upgrade the fuse cartridge in the hager fuse box to 40A or something for this circuit?


And are your saying for the other circuit…

Kitchen Circuit 2: 20A
A? - Valiant Boiler
A? – Hive Central Heating switch
A? – Couple of plugs hardly used
Total so far = 11A?
9A remaining so maybe could move Hotpoint washing machine to this?

Thus would then allows Circuit 1: to have BEKO oven and everything on, and still be under (39.6-7.7A) = 31.9A?

 

[Avo Mk8]

Kitchen Circuit 1: 32A
ignore A - some kitchen sockets hardly used
ignore A - Gas Hob
7A - microwave
2A - fridge freezer
8.3A - kettle
5A - toaster
7.7A - Hotpoint Washer & Dryer RD 966 J
Total so far = 30A
9.6A - New BEKO oven
Total of all = 39.6A

Correct

If you had Fridge, Washing machine, Oven on at the same time 19.3A - leaves space for a kettle, but could trip if you have kettle and microwave going?

When it comes to 'tripping' due to slightly excess current in the circuit, it's all about the combination of the average degree of overload, and the time it lasts. It's done by a bimetallic strip arrangement. The behaviour is embedded in the design of the MCB's. For your type B mcb, a small excess current, up to 1.13 times the rating of the mcb, will take more than an hour to trip (remenbering that's the average current over all that time).
If the average current increases to 1.4 times the mcb rating, it will trip in under an hour. From there the more the overload, the quicker it trips.
So it's difficult to answer your question, because it depends heavily on what the average current is over a period of time.
But the point is to arrive at a safe circuit that meets regulations, not just be driven by 'will it trip', which might be your main concern, but you don't want the house catching fire either, do you!

Can’t I just upgrade the fuse cartridge in the hager fuse box to 40A or something for this circuit?

No you absolutely must not. For your ring final circuit in 2.5mm T&E, the mcb must be 32A and no more, otherwise the cable is not protected. The cable is not rated to share 40A. (all set out in the Wiring Regulations)

And are your saying for the other circuit…

Kitchen Circuit 2: 20A
A? - Valiant Boiler
A? – Hive Central Heating switch
A? – Couple of plugs hardly used
Total so far = 11A?
9A remaining so maybe could move Hotpoint washing machine to this?

3A Vailant boiler (takes less, but that's the fuse)
3A Hive (as above)
Total so far 8A?
12A remaining - plenty for washing machine.

Thus would then allows Circuit 1: to have BEKO oven and everything on, and still be under (39.6-7.7A) = 31.9A?

Precisely
And bear in mind the oven without the grill on would be 7.6A not 9.6A; we do have 'worst case' figures here.

 

[advicewelcom]

Precisely
And bear in mind the oven without the grill on would be 7.6A not 9.6A; we do have 'worst case' figures here.

Thanks, will take a look at all the great info here.

I did take a look at the washing machine/boiler wiring arrangement, pics attached...

1- Washing machine pulled out
2- Wall switch to power socket for washing machine
3- Single plug socket in underneath area for washing machine
4- Wiring access around the boiler

I assume the best way is to get an elecy to run a cable down from that double plug next to the boiler down to the fuse spur for the oven? (which is under the kitchen top and behind the oven)

Is it that straightforward to wire the oven into that boiler/washing machine 20A ring?

 

[Avo Mk8]

If you are contemplating making any changes to the fixed wiring, I feel it's essential you get an electrician to look at the options. You need to have it confirmed that our theories about the kitchen ring, and the boiler radial, are actually correct, and then the electrician can consider the wisdom and practicality of what you're suggesting.

I didn't intend to suggest putting the oven on the boiler circuit, I don't think that is a good idea.

If it were me, I would pass the flex of the washing machine up behind the worktop, probably in the boxing-in of the pipes, and plug it into the socket by the boiler. That would avoid the possibility of excessive load on the kitchen ring, so you could then wire the oven into the spur already provided for it. And thus no changes to the fixed wiring.

 

[advicewelcom]

I didn't intend to suggest putting the oven on the boiler circuit, I don't think that is a good idea. If it were me, I would pass the flex of the washing machine up behind the worktop, probably in the boxing-in of the pipes, and plug it into the socket by the boiler. That would avoid the possibility of excessive load on the kitchen ring, so you could then wire the oven into the spur already provided for it. And thus no changes to the fixed wiring.

So, if the below is correct in the way its wired, you're suggesting plugging the Hotpoint Washer Dryer into the Kitchen Circuit 2 and then the New BEKO electrical oven would be okay on Kitchen Circuit 1?

Kitchen Circuit 1: 32A
ignore A - some kitchen sockets hardly used
ignore A - Gas Hob
7A - microwave
2A - fridge freezer
8.3A - kettle
5A - toaster
7.7A - Hotpoint Washer & Dryer RD 966 J
Total so far = 30A
9.6A - Potential New BEKO oven
Total of all = 39.6A

Kitchen Circuit 2: 20A
3A - Vailant boiler (takes less, but that's the fuse)
3A - Hive (as above)
1A - Couple of plugs hardly used?
Total so far 7-8A?

 

[Avo Mk8]

So, if the below is correct in the way its wired, you're suggesting plugging the Hotpoint Washer Dryer into the Kitchen Circuit 2 and then the New BEKO electrical oven would be okay on Kitchen Circuit 1?

Yes. If you did that, with every appliance you have running simultaneously flat out, total load would be:
Kitchen circuit 1 (rated at 32A) 31.9A
Kitchen circuit 2 (rated at 20A) 14.7A

Allowing for diversity, no problem.
No fiddling with fixed installation, no additional expense, no tripping.

 

[advicewelcom]

Yes. If you did that, with every appliance you have running simultaneously flat out, total load would be:
Kitchen circuit 1 (rated at 32A) 31.9A
Kitchen circuit 2 (rated at 20A) 14.7A
Allowing for diversity, no problem.
No fiddling with fixed installation, no additional expense, no tripping.

Sounds fabulous. Just have to double check I got the right things on the right rings.

But... they have sold out of those ovens at Currys

I assume any 9.7A max oven is going to work?

In Watts, Is the calculation done by:
P (power) = V (volts) x I (current).
W = 240V x 9.7A
W = 2.328kW max oven (with no plug).

 

[Avo Mk8]

I assume any 9.7A max oven is going to work?

In Watts, Is the calculation done by:
P (power) = V (volts) x I (current).
W = 240V x 9.7A
W = 2.328kW max oven (with no plug).

Yes to both

Every time we discuss an oven, the current goes up a tiny bit! (only joking)
I wouldn't worry about an extra half an amp.

Ex-display from a reputable supplier might be worth looking at.

Hope you get the matter sorted.

 

[brianmoooore]

The power rating of any appliance sold in the UK should be stated at 230 volts, not 240, which will reduce the current drawn in proportion.
I know electric shower suppliers still con their customers by stating the power output for 240 volts, but I haven't checked if the same applies for cookers.

 

[advicewelcom]

The power rating of any appliance sold in the UK should be stated at 230 volts, not 240, which will reduce the current drawn in proportion.
I know electric shower suppliers still con their customers by stating the power output for 240 volts, but I haven't checked if the same applies for cookers.

W = 2.231kW - 2.328kW max

 

[brianmoooore]

That's at 240V, according to your previous post. A cooker is a resistive load, and this one equates to 24.74 ohms. At 230V, this gives 9.3A or 2139W

 

[advicewelcom]

Kitchen Circuit 1: 32A
ignore A - some kitchen sockets hardly used
ignore A - Gas Hob
7A - microwave
2A - fridge freezer
8.3A - kettle
5A - toaster
7.7A - Hotpoint Washer & Dryer RD 966 J
Total so far = 30A
9.6A - Potential New BEKO oven
Total of all = 39.6A

Kitchen Circuit 2: 20A
3A - Vailant boiler (takes less, but that's the fuse)
3A - Hive (as above)
1A - Couple of plugs hardly used?
Total so far 7-8A?

Oh Gawd...

Just checked and it looks like the twin sockets next to the boiler are on Circuit 1 and the fuse spur on the right for the hob electrics in also on Circuit 1 (pic attached)

So looks like this....

Kitchen Circuit 1: 32A
ignore A - some kitchen sockets hardly used
ignore A - Gas Hob
7A - microwave
2A - fridge freezer
8.3A - kettle
5A - toaster
7.7A - Hotpoint Washer & Dryer RD 966 J
Total so far = 30A
9.6A - Potential New BEKO oven
Total of all = 39.6A

Kitchen Circuit 2: 20A
3A - Vailant boiler (takes less, but that's the fuse)
3A - Hive (as above)
Total so far 6A?

Which means plugging that washing machine into those twin wall sockets will keep it on Circuit 1.

Is there any way to wire a plug or connect into that boiler fused spur for the washing machine? Or culd the twin sockets be easily connected to that boiler fused spur?

 

[Avo Mk8]

Is there any way to wire a plug or connect into that boiler fused spur for the washing machine? Or culd the twin sockets be easily connected to that boiler fused spur?

You need to establish exactly what circuit that boiler fused spur is on, what cable size, and what breaker.
Are you sure that's not part of circuit 1 just as everything else seems to be ?

 

[advicewelcom]

You need to establish exactly what circuit that boiler fused spur is on, what cable size, and what breaker.
Are you sure that's not part of circuit 1 just as everything else seems to be ?

Hi, checked it out and after turning off Circuit 1 the boiler (and Hive) stayed on, everything else was off. Vice Versa. The twin sockets next to the Boiler are on Circuit 1 (so no point plugging washing machine into those twin sockets). Below is accurate...

Kitchen Circuit 1: 32A
ignore A - some kitchen sockets hardly used
ignore A - Gas Hob
7A - microwave
2A - fridge freezer
8.3A - kettle
5A - toaster
7.7A - Hotpoint Washer & Dryer RD 966 J
Total so far = 30A
9.6A - Potential New BEKO oven
Total of all = 39.6A

Kitchen Circuit 2: 20A
3A - Vailant boiler (takes less, but that's the fuse)
3A - Hive (as above)
Total so far 6A?


Attached pics show the fused spur right and left.

Left fused spur is wired to boiler, right fused spur is wired to the gas hob. Twin sockets are on Circuit 1.

Any method to get the twin sockets onto Circuit 2 so can plug washing machine into it?

 

[Avo Mk8]

Any method to get the twin sockets onto Circuit 2 so can plug washing machine into it?

I'll try again to explain.
it's not possible to say unless you know what size cable runs to the boiler spur, what size breaker it's on, and whether it's part of a ring serving other accessories as well, or is a radial circuit (ie one cable going from consumer unit to that fcu.), and if the latter you need to be sure of the current carrying capacity of the cable, and if it's serving anything else.

If you can answer the following, there might be a chance of deciding if it's practical. Otherwise you'll need an electrician to investigate and advise (which I recommend).

What markings are on the Hager breaker that serves the boiler fcu - in particular what current rating?
If there's a label below the breaker, what does it say (eg 'boiler!', or 'downstairs lights!')
Does anything else in the house go off if you switch off that boiler breaker (needs checking carefully)
Is it a single twin and earth cable that goes into the back of the boiler fcu, or are there two sets of cables?
Is the cable in the back of the boiler fcu the same physical size as the cable in the gas hob fcu (eg 2.5mm T&E)?

I made the suggestion to plug the washing machine into that socket, as a possible way of achieving the installation of the oven, because it avoided you having to interfere with the fixed installation. Now we are back playing with the house wiring, I think you would be better served getting an electrician in to solve the problem. He would see the best way of doing it, rather than us trying to divine it remotely.
However if you can answer the questions above, we might hazard a guess as to whether it could be a straightforward job for that electrician!