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TedM
Very true. One prime example is Virginia Graham, CEO of REAL, who used to work at OFGEM. Revolving doors.
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Eco Deal
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SRE
It won't meet it now but in a few years when grid parity is achieved it will be eligible under Green Deal or whatever the latest political version of it is.
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Eco Deal
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moggy1968
would green deal offer an affordable way into PV for those whose houses don't (and possibly never will) meet the epc requirements?
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sedgy34
the green deal is making it more affordable for EVERYONE to get there houses a band D and more efficient including pv
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SRE
I think the jury's out until we have more details. If it costs 10k to get solid wall insulation on a detached house with oil heating to get it to a D rating then to come in under Green Deal as I understand it the repayments would have to be less than or equal to the savings achieved through the solid wall insulation and repayable within 20?? years. So £300 a year savings (and that's generous) x 20 years = 6k and that's without paying the 6 -7% interest that's being suggested.
Maybe my figures are wrong, maybe I haven't understood it but why would I tie in 10k ish of work to my fuel bills when any reduction ends up paying for the saving. Loft and cavity are much better examples but if you can't give it away free (and in some cases people on benefit are being paid to have it installed) then why would you pay for it. It's beyond me at the minute!
Maybe my figures are wrong, maybe I haven't understood it but why would I tie in 10k ish of work to my fuel bills when any reduction ends up paying for the saving. Loft and cavity are much better examples but if you can't give it away free (and in some cases people on benefit are being paid to have it installed) then why would you pay for it. It's beyond me at the minute!
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Earthstore
I have to agree, it is all beyond me also, and quite frankly I am tired of it all.
But on a lighter note, I emailed OFGEM over a month ago complaining about how complex the EPC rules are and also they are unclear, making a point about all the red tape,and asked for them to answer my questions and not send me to yet another PDF file, and guess what.....
I was sent a link to an 88 page document, says it all really.
But on a lighter note, I emailed OFGEM over a month ago complaining about how complex the EPC rules are and also they are unclear, making a point about all the red tape,and asked for them to answer my questions and not send me to yet another PDF file, and guess what.....
I was sent a link to an 88 page document, says it all really.
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moggy1968
yep, can't say I can see how it will work either. It's a dead duck as far as I can see. Might help with a bit of loft insulation but thats about it!
No one seems to have considered the efect on the houses electrical system of enclosing all that cable in insulation it was never designed for either.
No one seems to have considered the efect on the houses electrical system of enclosing all that cable in insulation it was never designed for either.
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Mr Peacock
I have already seen a Green deal format EPC, which lists the measures which could be implemented under the greendeal. it listed the improvement measures for the property as Solar Thermal and Solar PV. Which was a supprise. The Greendeal in my opinion will push the insulation and heating / hot water technologies first. Its pointless fitting a new band A condensing boiler, heatpump, or anything else for that matter if the insulation standard isnt up to scratch. For properties where the insulation has already been done, and a condensing boiler or heat pump fitted, then the room for improvement then looks at SOlar thermal, PV etc.
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SRE
I have one in front of me which suggests solar thermal but says it can't be fully financed under the Green Deal and you may need to contribute some payment up front. Low energy lighting doesn't even have the amber tick so it's not eligible at all.
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TedM
DECC haven't clarified the position on low energy lighting in domestic properties. The concern is that people would just walk away with LED bulbs when they move if these have been financed via GD. It's difficult to see how this could be resolved simply.
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sedgy34
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MickF
Just spent 6 hours with various people involved at the sharp end on the Greendeal, including one GDP ..
Maybe i'm a cynic..
A number things came out of it
1) The average customer who takes up the green deal will do so as they have no other way of funding the measures. i.e. they are D, E on the social scale, and also are the same people that would already have gone for the 'free solar'
2) The people that will make money out of this are the finance providers - they (the GDP's) will do the math on the returns, and so set the price of the work, you can gaurantee that what won't be trimmed is the cost of the finance. - There are NO controls on the interest rate to be charged.
3) For installers, it will simple be a race to the bottom on costs/pricing.
4) If as an installer you take a proposal to a GDP, they have no obilgation to give it back to you to do the work - they will more than likely give it to the lowest cost provider.
5) Entry points into the green deal are most likely to be either the current crop of telesales offering 'free' insulation, or a 'distress' purchase: Mrs Bloggings boiler breaks down, they go in offer a replacement bolier (condensing of course) for 'FREE' on the green deal, and then immediately upsell on loft insulation, cavity wall insulation, double galzing etc etc. - all for 'FREE'.- gotcha Mrs Bloggins
6) There will only be 50 green deal approved project per week between ovtober and december, of which 20 per week have been allocated to Kingfisher aka B&Q
7) Anything that meets 'the golden rule' is effectively in, in some cases that may mean it needs topping up from the ECO funding in order for it to meet the Golden Rule, external wall insulation being a case in point.
8) The finance take a second charge on the property - now try to sell it !!!
8) And here's the big one ... If you have solar Pv or thermal (or any other renewable technolgy) installed under the green deal (even though it is a commercial finance scheme) you wil NOT be eligible for FIT or RHI .......
Bottom line, for any professional independant installer, forget the Green Deal, the likes of the Mark Group, Carillion, British Gas etc will love it.
Maybe i'm a cynic..
A number things came out of it
1) The average customer who takes up the green deal will do so as they have no other way of funding the measures. i.e. they are D, E on the social scale, and also are the same people that would already have gone for the 'free solar'
2) The people that will make money out of this are the finance providers - they (the GDP's) will do the math on the returns, and so set the price of the work, you can gaurantee that what won't be trimmed is the cost of the finance. - There are NO controls on the interest rate to be charged.
3) For installers, it will simple be a race to the bottom on costs/pricing.
4) If as an installer you take a proposal to a GDP, they have no obilgation to give it back to you to do the work - they will more than likely give it to the lowest cost provider.
5) Entry points into the green deal are most likely to be either the current crop of telesales offering 'free' insulation, or a 'distress' purchase: Mrs Bloggings boiler breaks down, they go in offer a replacement bolier (condensing of course) for 'FREE' on the green deal, and then immediately upsell on loft insulation, cavity wall insulation, double galzing etc etc. - all for 'FREE'.- gotcha Mrs Bloggins
6) There will only be 50 green deal approved project per week between ovtober and december, of which 20 per week have been allocated to Kingfisher aka B&Q
7) Anything that meets 'the golden rule' is effectively in, in some cases that may mean it needs topping up from the ECO funding in order for it to meet the Golden Rule, external wall insulation being a case in point.
8) The finance take a second charge on the property - now try to sell it !!!
8) And here's the big one ... If you have solar Pv or thermal (or any other renewable technolgy) installed under the green deal (even though it is a commercial finance scheme) you wil NOT be eligible for FIT or RHI .......
Bottom line, for any professional independant installer, forget the Green Deal, the likes of the Mark Group, Carillion, British Gas etc will love it.
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MickF
p.s.
And of course since the Solar PV and Solar Thermal isn't eleigible for FIT / RHI, you won't need to be MCS registered to isntall it! You just need to comply with the 'lower' generic PAS 2030
And of course since the Solar PV and Solar Thermal isn't eleigible for FIT / RHI, you won't need to be MCS registered to isntall it! You just need to comply with the 'lower' generic PAS 2030
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Earthstore
Well what a can of worms this is then.
As these customers will in essence be buying systems on credit, they will be covered by the consumer credit act, oh, I see some court cases on the horizon...
As these customers will in essence be buying systems on credit, they will be covered by the consumer credit act, oh, I see some court cases on the horizon...
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MickF
Spot on, all GDP's have to be CCA compliant..
The only 'hope' is with the likes of the Grafton Group (they are already one of the approved GDP's) they trade under the Buildbase, Plumbase, Jackson and Selco brands, and they want to shift their materials.
However, you are up against the big boys, and I can now see the sharks at the checkout of B&Q telling people not to pay for that roll of insulation they've just picked up as if they let a man come round they can have it for 'free'....
The only 'hope' is with the likes of the Grafton Group (they are already one of the approved GDP's) they trade under the Buildbase, Plumbase, Jackson and Selco brands, and they want to shift their materials.
However, you are up against the big boys, and I can now see the sharks at the checkout of B&Q telling people not to pay for that roll of insulation they've just picked up as if they let a man come round they can have it for 'free'....
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MickF
Theoritically a Housing Association could also become a GDP ... (it's open to anyone that is prepared to be 'compliant') and get their tenant to pay for the improvements.
or - here's one fro SRE A property developer aka landlord could get all the improvements to bring the building up to the standards for 'free' and get it paid for by the tenants ion their bill ......
or - here's one fro SRE
A property developer aka landlord could get all the improvements to bring the building up to the standards for 'free' and get it paid for by the tenants ion their bill ......
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SRE
Theoritically a Housing Association could also become a GDP ... (it's open to anyone that is prepared to be 'compliant') and get their tenant to pay for the improvements.
or - here's one fro SRE
Yea, ironically I benefit from a much improved house while my tenant pays for it. I've got 3 houses with solid walls and the thought has crossed my mind - not sure if my morals will let me do it though!
Here's Somerset West Home Energy a pre Eco/Green Deal pilot run by a reputable energy agency in Bristol. It's going to be interesting to see how they get on with their pilot.
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