in after a cowboy, cooker nearly burnt the house down!

[spark 68]

so if i was to fit a new board, i'd have to fit a 100mA time delayed RDC main switch? also i would fit bonding, and what about the main earth to the erath spike? it's 10mm at the minute, dissapears into the wall and i can't see where it goes. how do i go about fettling this upto the 17th edition, and how do I test it?

No need to fit a 100mA TD upfront, provided the CU you replace it with is Class II (plastic) and at least a Dual RCD split load, see OSG p16 Fig 2.1(iii).

 

[ExArmy]

Have you weighed the client up yet? Judging a book by it's cover is never good (and sometimes it goes wrong) but is there money in it for you? Are they likely to go for it OR are could this be a factor as to how they ended up with a shoddy job done in the first place?

If in doubt price yourself out of it and walk away:thumbsup

yes, the person paying for the work is the landlord, who owns several properties, and the people who bodged the cooker have worked on his houses for years and never had any problems before (nothing short of a miracle from some of the wiring i saw today) i'll get some pics on my periodic tomorrow

 

[Guest55]

so if i was to fit a new board, i'd have to fit a 100mA time delayed RDC main switch? Yes

also i would fit bonding, Yes
and what about the main earth to the erath spike? it's 10mm at the minute, Needs to be 16mm
dissapears into the wall and i can't see where it goes. You need to find and check the rods condition , but it sounds like its giving good readings from your earlier posts.

how do i go about fettling this upto the 17th edition, and how do I test it? Use earth loop test from CU main switch terminals and earth rod conductor.

.........................

 

[1shortcircuit]

so if i was to fit a new board, i'd have to fit a 100mA time delayed RDC main switch? Yes

I disagree, if fitting a new board then all circuits will be protected with 30mA protection so the 100mA could be binned and an isolator fitted in it's position or tails sent straight into the board.

 

[spark 68]

Why does he have to fit a 100mA TD upfront RCD Biff ?, if he replaces the CU with a plastic Dual RCD one there is no reg that says you must fit an additional Upfront TD 100mA RCD.

I Know some sparks have their own preference on this, as I would consider it in certain circumstances, but on such a small domestic install I wouldn't bother.

Likewise on the earthing conductor, so long as the cable isn't buried he could use 6mm, in fact if it was mechanically protected it is possible to use 2.5mm on a domestic TT (not that you would).

 

[Guest55]

I disagree

And just as i thought we might be getting near the end of this long journey lol.

 

[1shortcircuit]

And just as i thought we might be getting near the end of this long journey lol.

Hey it's only stating I disagree I'm not trying to start an argument over it lol

Perhaps I have typed before engaging brain but I do not come across many TT installations so perhaps you know something I do not? If so I would be more than happy for someone to enlighten me and I will stand correct. We've got 6 minutes for me to learn something new today:thumbsup

Make that 5

 

[Guest55]

Why does he have to fit a 100mA TD upfront RCD Biff ?, if he replaces the CU with a plastic Dual RCD one there is no reg that says you must fit an additional Upfront TD 100mA RCD.

I Know some sparks have their own preference on this, as I would consider it in certain circumstances, but on such a small domestic install I wouldn't bother.

Likewise on the earthing conductor, so long as the cable isn't buried he could use 6mm, in fact if it was mechanically protected it is possible to use 2.5mm on a domestic TT (not that you would).

I stand corrected with the point of not needing 100mA if dual 30mA ( im blaming it on the liquor lol )
However if he cant prove the rod earth conductor is mechanically protected when buried ( and i bet its not ) then 16mm is required.

 

[Guest55]

But youre right , i'd be happy to use the 10mm if its giving good readings , i cant be arsed digging up the drive for a new rod install either

 

[Des 56]

i said this evening i'll have to RCD protect anything i fit which would mean changing the board,

​

Stand alone Rcd
It will certainly make you more competitive than John from the Pub,that's comparing to the proposed all singing and dancing 17th compliant and possibly un necessary new board

 

[baazab]

why not run new circuit ,job done

 

[gnselectricals]

Just fit an RCD fused spur to the existing ring all surface mount to supply the oven, check main bonding is in place & stop trying to over complicate things.
Regards Gram

 

[Deleted member 9648]

FFS....4 pages....62 posts and we still cant agree how to connect a cooker...

 

[sedgy34]

FFS....4 pages....62 posts and we still cant agree how to connect a cooker...

She don't cook either lol

 

[Edd]

I think the only way this is gona get solved is for them to go Gas....

Now how do we supply the gas ignition!!

 

[Guitarist]

Get BG in. They will tell you exactly what needs upgrading

 

[telectrix]

my tuppence worth is..... EICR for £150.get the cash in your pocket, then quote for new CU, bonding, new cooker circuit £750.

 

[richy3333]

I disagree, if fitting a new board then all circuits will be protected with 30mA protection so the 100mA could be binned and an isolator fitted in it's position or tails sent straight into the board.

Have to agree. For those that keep referencing the OSG, start quoting the Regs as that's what we work to? Where do the Regs require a 100mA RCD time delayed, or not?

 

[sparks1973]

Yes , you do.
Any cable you install thats buried in the wall needs to be rcd protected , so if youre spurring off a socket for the cooker , then the ring needs a rcd.
Either that or surface fix cable.

well...yes...if at a depth of less than 50mm without an earthed metallic covering such as a conduit....its TT however so i would recommend the RCD be replaced with a 30mA one....its upfront feeding a BS3036 board so it doesnt need 100mA for discrimination purposes does it.....if the c/u is also feeding a garage circuit then the 100mA stand alone RCD could be used to feed that....but i would suggest that a 30mA RCD be used to provide additional potection for all other final circuits....it is of course only a recomendation....it would be up to the client/person ordering the work as wether they wish to procede...or not....

 

[sedgy34]

Just think of all the regs that come into effect when you have a job to do which is paying little also in these economic times, I sometimes ask is it worth it. Not many other trades who have all these things to think about, and headaches.

 

[sedgy34]

my tuppence worth is..... EICR for £150.get the cash in your pocket, then quote for new CU, bonding, new cooker circuit £750.

Your repaired well tel, I would do the same fed up almost every customer pleading poverty these days

 

[sparks1973]

Just think of all the regs that come into effect when you have a job to do which is paying little also in these economic times, I sometimes ask is it worth it. Not many other trades who have all these things to think about, and headaches.

well when i have to think about something sedg...my head dont ache....how about you?

 

[sedgy34]

Ha lol I see what your getting at
My headaches come from 7,8,9 different jobs with different problems which come to lite
not 1 little domestic problem in 1 day.

 

[telectrix]

Your repaired well tel, I would do the same fed up almost every customer pleading poverty these days

yep. 1st decent bit of plumbing i've seen for ages. just still sore where they cut me to insert the tubes.

 

[ExArmy]

went there today and did an EICR, all circuits were fine suprisingly (ring with 12 points, lighting circuit with 7 points and a shower) and there is bonding installed to the gas and water upon closer inspection, and no earth rod. it looks to me like the supply has been made into a T-NCS outside, but not inside a the service head??

outside i can see a cable coming from what looks like the sheath of a supply cable being connected up to the neutral tail. the 2 tails grouped at the top go all the way along the row of houses and into every house, the 3rd one at the botom just runs straight accross, i lost sight of it as i couldn't go through the end garden. if i test at the top of the main switch with N+E probes on the N I got 0.13 ohms, if i test with the earth on the MET (with only bonding connected) then the reading is 4.9 ohms.
so, i don't really know what sort of supply it is. I am going to have to make an enquiry to the DNO on monday morning. but what do you lot think?

 

[sparks1973]

went there today and did an EICR, all circuits were fine suprisingly (ring with 12 points, lighting circuit with 7 points and a shower) and there is bonding installed to the gas and water upon closer inspection, and no earth rod. it looks to me like the supply has been made into a T-NCS outside, but not inside a the service head??

outside i can see a cable coming from what looks like the sheath of a supply cable being connected up to the neutral tail. the 2 tails grouped at the top go all the way along the row of houses and into every house, the 3rd one at the botom just runs straight accross, i lost sight of it as i couldn't go through the end garden. if i test at the top of the main switch with N+E probes on the N I got 0.13 ohms, if i test with the earth on the MET (with only bonding connected) then the reading is 4.9 ohms.
so, i don't really know what sort of supply it is. I am going to have to make an enquiry to the DNO on monday morning. but what do you lot think?

saw something similar a bit back....had been on a rod..but was TN-C-S overhead...they had left a cable clipped direct to the outside wall of the property tapped off the overhead neutral...this cable was just cropped at the base...not good....i got the DNO out to sort it.....

 

[ExArmy]

phoned DNO, was told it should all be PME. so i said where shall i put the earth then as theres nothing at the service head! i think they are coming out to sort it tomorrow, I had to get the customer to phone them and sort it out between themselves apparently

 

[ExArmy]

well the DNO are being pretty useless at the minute, after they told me to get the customer to call them, when the customer phoned up they said they needed to speak to the electrican so i got a call back, i've spoke to several different people now as i keep getting passed about, they seem very reluctant to come and change the service head, yesterday they said "can you not must put an earth rod in?"
supposed to get a call back about it today but not heard owt. boloody useless. the DNO is electricity northwest btw

 

[Guest55]

This is how things stand :
The customer is responsible for any dealings with the elecy board , its their property and they pay the bill - got nowt to do with you or any other spark so dont get involved other to advise your customer.
They're just dragging their feet because any repairs will be at their expense so tell the homeowner to stand firm and insist on at least a site visit by one of their engineers.

 

[ExArmy]

seems backwards to me, i explained to the customer what the situation so she could liase with the DNO direct and she was just baffled with terminology and started panicking when i said theres no incoming earth. hows she supposed to explain to the DNO what the problem is if she doesn't know herself? i'll speak to the customer again tomorrow and explain the hold up.

 

[adoselectrician]

Anything new you do will want an RCD as a rule of thumb. Especially in a kitchen or bathroom as these are classed as 'special locations'

A kitchen isn't a Special location..sorry to put a damper on things.

 

[jay b]

You need rcd regardless if cable is in wall or not as kitchen is regarded as special location

 

[petemadsen]

i have just been to look at a job where i was asked to install a cooker as the previous one had nearly burned the house down apparently. When i took the cooker out there was a large burnt patch (300m accross), loads of charcoal, almost got through 1/2" ply below . When i pulled out the heat resistant flex i couldn't see where it had been plugged into, but it's likely it was plugged into the ring. It is a 3200w cooker from argos, the customer had got an argos technician out and apparently the cookers fine and it was down to the installation. Customer reckons it was sat ontop of the connections and it was bodged up, i did try asking the customer to clarify how the cooker was connected up, but couldn't get much out of her! Theres a 2.5 t&e running below the worktop behind the cupboards, not connected to anything but still live? But couldn't find where it came from as all the cupboards are full to the brim!

It's only a small house, 2 up 2 down, it's tt, got a 100ma rcd upfront and a 8 way 3036 board with 3 circuits (ring, lights and shower). Ze is 5-6ish ohms. Would it be ok to spur it off the ring to a fused spur above the worktop, and then down to the cooker? An just put it on a minor works?
I'm not entirely sure what the line is about working on a circuit without 30ma rcd protection, do i need to add an rcd first or not?

Also, the voltage is 250v at this house, 3200w at 250v is 12.8, so it i put a 13a fuse in the fcu then it will be alright? I seem to remember something from college saying all calculations to be worked out at 230v, in which case the current will be 13.9a and it will be more than the fuse rating. Probably never blow, but what should i do here?

i would suggest that your priority would be ( as well as compliance with any relevant regs ) to protect the client and the property from any future mis-adventure, as well as yourself, so, as you don't know what's within thew walls,
fit the rcd as standard practice !!! Why chance ? Your job is'nt as a croupier in a casino or a game of chance, if you have any doubt at all, always aire on the side of caution and protect,protect,protect........ Yourself included.

 

[Generator]

12.8 or 13.9A ? a 1361 fuse will hold well above 13.9 Amp for evermore! Fuses are not overload devices! - they are for short circuit protection. I wouldn't dream of putting a cooker on 2.5mm cable, or even a spur off a ring - cookers should be separately fed as they can affect the diversity factor for the ring. I know it's only a wee cooker ( almost camping size!),
but what happens when the lady decides she would like a bigger cooker? She might go back to Argos!

 

[trev]

Fuses are not overload devices! - they are for short circuit protection.

Interesting point there mate, even wikipedia mentions overload protection and I wouldn't trust that site as far as I could throw you.

 

[RichieC]

As long as you surface wire it and make sure it is a FCU and not a socket outet you will not require an RCD. However, I would advise you make note of this on the cert. Always have your onsite guide mate, its very handy. Remember this job will need to be notified as its work in a kitchen ( special location ) Good luck!!

 

[Guitarist]

seems backwards to me, i explained to the customer what the situation so she could liase with the DNO direct and she was just baffled with terminology and started panicking when i said theres no incoming earth. hows she supposed to explain to the DNO what the problem is if she doesn't know herself? i'll speak to the customer again tomorrow and explain the hold up.

All you have to do if you are feeling like helping, is what I do...
Get customer to phone DNO and say "I don't understand all this rubbish and want you to talk to my electrician. I hereby authorise him/her to act on my behalf in this matter".
You then phone DNO and sort it out. Works every time for me.

 

[stonejenson]

Keep reading - that para only covers cables in steel conduit or with metallic protection, look on next page under diagram where it talks about circuits that are not in steel conduit or are unprotected - 30mA RCD is required for ALL circuits.
(Sorry, forgot to post quote with this and it came from an earlier page, re-OSG page 28)

 

[drew35]

I think the only way to settle this post is for us all to meet up at a centrally located pub, have a quick drink, and then fight it out in the car park!

We could all bring our OSG and BGB and use them as weapons!

 

[Guitarist]

I think the only way to settle this post is for us all to meet up at a centrally located pub, have a quick drink, and then fight it out in the car park!

We could all bring our OSG and BGB and use them as weapons!

My BGB is encased in a titanium folder....Bring it on.... :13:

 

[Strima]

My BGB is encased in a titanium folder....Bring it on.... :13:

Mine has pike nuts on it, went for the Gothic look... :lol:

 

[ExArmy]

Electricity northwest eventually changed the cutout for a PME one, and i have the customer agreed to a new board and a new cooker circuit. installed the cooker circuit just now and tested it, but the oven(brand new) is getting extreemly hot at the bottom, so i have disconnected it and told them i'm going to have to have a look into it.

heres the pictures from when it set onfire the first time

and the flex i removed, customer said originally it was because of the way it was wired up that i got too hot and the oven was sat on the JB, but i don't think thats possible as heres the flex i removed, not melted and looking in good condition. there was far too much copper on show, and no use of a flex clamp but i don't think that started the fire.

and before installing it i turned the lower plinth thingy round so there was not charcoal showing like so:

i've read through the instructions, no mention of an air gap below needed. whats your suggestions? gonna phone the manufacturer tomorrow anyway

 

[Amp David]

All ovens that i have installed have already had and air gap cut into the top of the plynth then usually at the back of the unit its open

 

[ExArmy]

i've just cooked my tea, unscrewed the oven and pulled it out and it was red hot too, but there was a 20mm gap between the wood and the metal oven, whereas theis cheapo argos oven just sits on the wood! what about new bit of wood, with a load of 20mm holes in it for cooling? i can't really sit in on 2 spacer to make an air gap as theres only so much room below the worktop.

 

[pto]

lets face it it a cheep oven

 

[Guitarist]

Maybe the cooker was objecting to that flooring pattern....

 

[ExArmy]

well i've decided the best people to speak to are the local kitchen fitter shop, I reckon a new base, drill a load of 25mm holes in it, and fix some louvre vents to the front and back so air can circulate below the oven. hopefully that will do the trick

 

[Silly Sausage]

Surely that oven must be faulty. The inner oven spaces are covered with insulation.
Doesn't seem right that the outer casing is getting that hot to burn the surrounding woodwork.

 

[alarm man]

its a shame that lino didnt get damaged...it either bad taste or the kids are out of control..mg_smile:

 

[Guitarist]

If you are following man. Instr and it is scorching the surrounding woodwork then it has to be either a faulty oven or a faulty design.