Now I know who is making money from Green Deal....

[TMGL]

What will your customer that you signed up today say in two months when the Green Deal launches and he has spent his money now.

If he/she's got any sense he/she will say...'As I had the money, I'm glad I paid upfront two months ago and so avoided paying commercial rates of interest on a PV loan (aka Green Deal)'.

Even if PV met the Golden Rule, you'd still be better of paying for it upfront rather than borrowing money.

 

[Gavin A]

What will your customer that you signed up today say in two months when the Green Deal launches and he has spent his money now.
No wonder the public has no faith in the industry when all your interested in is anther sale, instead of advising the customer that this is a 20 year investment and it wouldn't harm to just wait 3 months and see what the government are suggesting.

what are you banging on about?

Green Deal will not fund solar PV installations (though it may part fund them), but even if it does then that won't affect 99% of our customers who have the money already, want to invest the money they have, and certainly wouldn't consider paying 7-8% interest on a green deal loan to pay for it instead of using their own money.

This in no way precludes them from using green deal finances if they want to for other energy saving measures when green deal starts, though I doubt many will tbh as most already have most of the measures done already, and have their own funds if they want to do any other work.

 

[sparkless]

I'm sorry guys we really disagree on this.

the Green Deal incentive, when launched for solar, will be replacing the previous incentive, which, although still exists, was called the Feed-in-Tariff. which in turn replaced the previous incentive called ROCs.

the trouble you've got is when you join the party late, you don't know the whole story.

Draft one of the Green Deal was less of a loan and more of a grant system that would be available to all households across the country to be spent on renewable's and energy efficiency for each household.

the loan would be secured on the household and be repaid on change of ownership or as is with savings produced.

This was a tried and tested method in Birmingham and was used to Double Glaze a lot of properties by the City Council.

If that system would work, we could potentially fit renewables to every house in Britain in one generation, assuming every household changes hands every generation or less.

when this scheme was adapted for Solar, obviously the costs were much greater and so the funding was harder to achieve.
private companies were brought in to finance and as they are business then added 6-7% return on loans.

this is the system we are at now.
anyone with half a brain can see this is a rubbish system for the solar industry and so the August launch was put back until October until the funding is resolved, this still isn't resolved and is now delayed until we are told March.

The main complaint with the FiT was it only rewarded the wealthy and was only available to people who had disposable money in the bank, they in turn were rewarded by raising everyone elses fuel bill to pay for their FiTs.

(so in reducing FiT would not have changed anything)
Now my point is that if they do achieve their original goal of financing all domestic installations until change of ownership, so not costing the customer a penny, isn't your customer going to be really ****ed off with you.






don't pretend I don't know what I'm on about to justify your money grabbing

 

[Eco Deal]

Sparkless if you dont know the diff between Green deal and FITS what hope do your customers have of understanding it

FITS = Payments for electricity

Green deal = Finance tied to the electric meter to pay for an installation of an energy saving product

two diffrent thing which can work together .


if you pay cash , get a loan or use the green deal for PV you still get 100% of the FITS and EXPORT

its easy to understand !

 

[Somecamel]

I'm sorry guys we really disagree on this.

the Green Deal incentive, when launched for solar, will be replacing the previous incentive, which, although still exists, was called the Feed-in-Tariff. which in turn replaced the previous incentive called ROCs.

Who's Authority do you have this under? I do see what your saying and i agree that the Government 'could' phase out fits and replace with some kind of green deal finance instead, but this hasn't happened yet.

 

[Worcester]

ROC's has definitely NOT been replaced in toto by FIT's, and can still be used for Solar PV

ROC's applies to large(r) scale installations
FIT's to smaller

ROC and FIT's are about GENERATION
Green Deal is about Energy SAVING

 

[sparkless]

i think your misunderstanding me and missing the point.

incentives is the key word

FiTs was launched by Ed Miliband for Labour.

the Lib Dem / Conservatives came in

Drastically cut Labours FiT idea and proposed the Green Deal,

which was Cgris Huhnes idea and was sounding like a good idea until he was sacked for passing on speeding tickets.


I know the FiTs are still there.
and I understand that Green Deal (as it stands) is not a financial incentive for Solar.

But the whole story is different, you've only got half of it.

What if Chris Huhnes idea of fitting solar to every household for free comes to light in March?

 

[sparkless]

ROC's has definitely NOT been replaced in toto by FIT's, and can still be used for Solar PV

ROC's applies to large(r) scale installations
FIT's to smaller

ROC and FIT's are about GENERATION
Green Deal is about Energy SAVING

ROCs were available on domestic before FiT.


again I'm not disputing that FiTs are generation and Green Deal is loan based.

they're different incentives, but still Government incentives

 

[Somecamel]

i think your misunderstanding me and missing the point.

incentives is the key word

FiTs was launched by Ed Miliband for Labour.

the Lib Dem / Conservatives came in

Drastically cut Labours FiT idea and proposed the Green Deal,

which was Cgris Huhnes idea and was sounding like a good idea until he was sacked for passing on speeding tickets.


I know the FiTs are still there.
and I understand that Green Deal (as it stands) is not a financial incentive for Solar.

But the whole story is different, you've only got half of it.

What if Chris Huhnes idea of fitting solar to every household for free comes to light in March?

You're a revolutionary

 

[sparkless]

Who's Authority do you have this under? I do see what your saying and i agree that the Government 'could' phase out fits and replace with some kind of green deal finance instead, but this hasn't happened yet.

the problem FiTs has, was it was rewarding the wealthy by taxing the poor.

reducing FiT payments doesn't cure any of this, it just reduces the tax.

What Chris Huhnes idea was to turn the whole thing upside down.
don't reward the wealthy, make solar available to everyone and make the money go on grants instead of FiT payments.

they embraced all renewables and it has really worked for the other technologies and they have ran away with it.
but the original idea had solar at the centre of the Green Deal and no-one here thinks it has anything to do with us

 

[Gavin A]

What if Chris Huhnes idea of fitting solar to every household for free comes to light in March?

what if pigs sprouted wings and flew south for winter?

I prefer to focus on the reality of the situation on the ground, we've got enough trouble dealing with that without dealing with random what ifs.


ps what you're suggesting would cost around £125 billion - what exactly is it about this coalitions policies that makes you think the treasury is about to sanction that level of spending on solar PV?

 

[Eco Deal]

think hes lost his marbles !

 

[sparkless]

what if pigs sprouted wings and flew south for winter?

I prefer to focus on the reality of the situation on the ground, we've got enough trouble dealing with that without dealing with random what ifs.


ps what you're suggesting would cost around £125 billion - what exactly is it about this coalitions policies that makes you think the treasury is about to sanction that level of spending on solar PV?

non of this is fictitious, this is where we are with Green Deal and why it hasn't gone live yet.

but to say Green Deal isn't involved in solar is just suggesting that people on here don't know what they're on about.

 

[Eco Deal]

green deal will help pay for a system ! we all know that BUT its not replacing FITS .

as you can claim fits after the system is fitted?

 

[sparkless]

Key word is incentive

 

[Gavin A]

non of this is fictitious, this is where we are with Green Deal and why it hasn't gone live yet.

but to say Green Deal isn't involved in solar is just suggesting that people on here don't know what they're on about.

I won't exclude the possibility entirely that DECC are trying to wedge PV into green deal somehow given that the place appears to be largely muppets* led by donkeys* taking advice from expensive consultant donkeys*, but I still say that 99% of our customers would be better off not touching it with a bargepole even if it did happen.


*aka economists.

 

[sparkless]

ok I'll spell it out to you.


replace the word "incentive" with the words "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house"

originally "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house" is because they could generate their own electricity.

then in April 2010 the FiT was introduced and was the reason "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house"

(Just because the FiT was introduced it didn't mean the original reason was a bad idea nor was it going to stop them generating your own power)

in October 2011 it was announced the Green Deal was going to be "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house" this didn't mean you would stop generating your own power nor did it mean the FiT would stop, but it would be the reason "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house"

the FiT was the previous Governments reason "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house"
the Green Deal is this Governments reason "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house"

I'm not defending the Green Deal, I'm a long way from that, I'm just saying how it was involved with Solar.

when we were talking to customers Pre April 2010, all some wanted was Solar PV and didn't care about the upcoming FiT system, they were just interested in generating their own power, as before it launched the systems were £18k-£22k for a 4kW and the FiT rate was forecast at 20p, when it launched Ed Milliband surprised us all with the high FiT and the gold rush began.

until it launches in March I don't think anyone should be installing. I understand it is a long way from where it was originally, but, until it launches we just don't know what they are going to do.

Since the surprise announcement on 30th October 2011 no-one can guarantee what is going to be released in March, we can all speculate but no-one knows.

why not be transparent with your customers and just wait three months

 

[SRE]

I'd like some of what Sparkless is on - get it while you can cos it's going to be illegal soon

 

[SolarCity]

why not be transparent with your customers and just wait three months

I think it would be terrible advice. If the customer has the money to install the panels then they are far better off paying for it themselves than by using the Green Deal.

If they don't have the money then it is a moot point anyway.

 

[Ian-LS]

" why not be transparent with your customers and just wait three months "

Wait three months for what? The industry to go belly up?

Can I point out as others have, green deal will not fully finance Solar PV as it does not meet the golden rule with the energy savings alone. The Green Deal will only finance part of the Solar PV and the rest will have to be funded by the customer.

By the way, the pint of the FIT scheme is not to fund the wealthy its to kick start the industry as grants alone obviously aren't enough. It is also about reducing costs of Renewable Energy, 4 kWp PV systems were up to £15,000 at the start of the FIT scheme and can now to bought for £6,000. As costs fall Solar PV will become more affordable for the less well off people.
​

 

[Worcester]

We are transparent with our customers, that's why we have a full order book for the next 10 weeks, and more quotes to do.

NOW is actually a better time to invest in solar than it was in November 2011.

The Green Deal will NOT be a better offer for THEM.

 

[Gavin A]

until it launches in March I don't think anyone should be installing. I understand it is a long way from where it was originally, but, until it launches we just don't know what they are going to do.

Since the surprise announcement on 30th October 2011 no-one can guarantee what is going to be released in March, we can all speculate but no-one knows.

why not be transparent with your customers and just wait three months

I think you're spouting a load of dangerous nonsense, and frankly it worries me that you've been going in to meetings at DECC as a representative of the industry unless your contributions to this thread are a bit of an aberration.

Green Deal is a loan, that's all it is, and it's a loan charging around 7-8% interest. It therefore can only possibly benefit those who're unable to finance an installation themselves and also unable to raise finance at less than 7-8% interest, which rules out pretty much all of our customers.

If you were talking about rent a roof companies then you might actually have a point, but none of us on here offer rent a roof options and if this is what you're talking about then you really ought to explain yourself better because you're risking seriously confusing people into thining Green Deal might in some way be relevant to them and their solar purchase when it won't.

 

[sparkless]

NOW is actually a better time to invest in solar than it was in November 2011.

spoken like a true Double Glazing Salesman.

in November 2011 it was 43.3p for 25 years
now its 15.44p for 20 years

 

[SpitfireW'sale]

It's pretty clear to me and I would have thought the vast majority on this forum that Worcester knows his trade extremely well. This thread seems to be spiralling downward to me!

 

[sparkless]

I think you're spouting a load of dangerous nonsense, and frankly it worries me that you've been going in to meetings at DECC as a representative of the industry unless your contributions to this thread are a bit of an aberration.

Green Deal is a loan, that's all it is, and it's a loan charging around 7-8% interest. It therefore can only possibly benefit those who're unable to finance an installation themselves and also unable to raise finance at less than 7-8% interest, which rules out pretty much all of our customers.

If you were talking about rent a roof companies then you might actually have a point, but none of us on here offer rent a roof options and if this is what you're talking about then you really ought to explain yourself better because you're risking seriously confusing people into thining Green Deal might in some way be relevant to them and their solar purchase when it won't.

I completely agree with you that the Green Deal we are all expecting will not work with Solar, it is a loan that when charged at 7-8% interest would never work with either part finance nor any other way.

my point was that in the original draft it was a large part of solar and we were core to it.

theres a lot of people on here thinking that the Green Deal has nothing to do with us.

I'm saying in the original draft it did, it has got completely lost along the way, but originally we were in it

thers a reason the launch has been held back

I was merely pointing out that there is a delay for a reason

anyone with half a brain can see that the scheme we are expecting will do nothing for the PV industry

 

[Gavin A]

my point was that in the original draft it was a large part of solar and we were core to it.

this just has no basis in reality - solar has never been anything other than a minor potential add on to green deal, green deal has always been focused primarily on energy efficiency not renewable energy generation right from the first discussions about it all the way through to now.

There may be some last minute attempt to shoe horn solar in by allowing the FIT payments to be included within the golden rule, but if there is then this will be a complete change in position from DECC, and the only market it will impact is the rent a roof market, and I suspect that this would be where any pressure for this change would be coming from.

 

[Ian-LS]

spoken like a true Double Glazing Salesman.

in November 2011 it was 43.3p for 25 years
now its 15.44p for 20 years

But the costs are half what they were in November 2011 and the export is 4.5p/kWh and electricty prices have gone up since November 2011. Its not double glazing salesman speak, the quotes we are sending out recently have similar rate of return to November 2011 but it half the up front cost. So in that sense its a better investment

 

[Worcester]

spoken like a true Double Glazing Salesman.

Can't be bothered to counter it .... Thanks to those of you that did!

sparkless, I really don't understand what your beef is. We're all entitled to the odd BMW moment (Bitch, Moan, Winge) in this case though it seems like you just don't like the fact that s**t happens.

The bottom line is simple, if you want to be in business in this sector then you have to play by the rules of the game. It's the same in any business sector, rules regulations, legislation, opportunities, threats. In this game the rules just like musical chairs - CHANGE every 90 days.

In our business plan, every time a change happens it creates a new opportunity. Renewables is what we do, we're here to stay, hence why for the last 6 months we've been investing heavily in qualifications and certifications, getting trained and experienced in the areas that represent opportunities to our clients and our market sector.

Look around others are doing the same - eco-deal (aka MEP) MCS Renewables, Berneray, GavinA, even somecamel's opened a shop and many others - all some of the wiser members of this forum (is there a clue here?)

Stop whinging, it's your choice, if you don't like it get out of it you dont HAVE to renew your MCS certification in March if you don't want to...

 

[Energetic]

I've just re-read this thread to see if i'd missed some important pearl of wisdom that gives your position any credibility.

So far in this thread we have had the following claims from you:

FiT replaced ROC... Not true

Green Deal replaces FiT... Not true

More than two PV installs for one owner is banned... not true

An unconsulted, unannounced plan devised by disgraced former Secretary of state for energy and climate change to provide free solar to everyone will come into place in march and is the reason the green deal has not been launched... afaik not true, please provide evidence.

Free solar would be funded at change of ownership resulting on a new tax on purchasing homes with higher efficiency... IMO unlikely in the current housing market climate that the government is desperate to prop up, please provide evidence to suport this claim.


On top of that you have attacked the credibility of respected industry professionals and produced nothing to back up your claims.

You have attemped to present opinion as fact and ignored everyone who has given their time and knowledge to present actual facts in an easy to understand way, and in doing so have made yourself look a bit of a prat. I'm all for prople making themselves look a prat normally but this forum is open to the public and i do sincerely hope that your ravings are ignored by the general public who i believe are clever enough to look at the facts and make an informed decision.

I am still waiting for the pearl of wisdom but suspect i'm more likely to get abuse again...

e

 

[sedgy34]

I think sparkless is a villa fan lol say no more!!

 

[SibertSolar]

Amazing.....really don't know where to start....in fact, I won't. I'll keep reading with avid interest and wait and see if any sense has actually gone in. Failing to see what the actual point/message is supposed to be?

 

[puddy]

I think you have all seen my solar pv figures in cash?

Homesun will receive around £1245 for the last 12 months

I didn’t let homesun come to me!!! I went to them and Sue Welland and her team were brilliant. My contract was only 2 pages long with no small print and it states they only rent 2 inches of airspace above my roof. It makes clear they don’t own any part of my house. So it doesn’t turn my freehold in to lease hold it won’t stop you getting a mortgage.

I didn’t have the money to pay for solar panels. I have just paid my mortgage off and as I have said before borrowing money that secured on my house
for 8 panels on the roof is a none starter for me.

I will not have any type of loan secured against my house What happens when interest rates start going up? Yes they my start at 8% but is the APR going to be fixed?

Being a loan secured against your property the APR will be variable. What happen when they start going up to 10-12% and don’t forget your mortgage will rise at the same rates. Electric oil and gas will rise too but if your income like most stuck at 1% per year how will we pay these bills. People will lose their homes to the banks


Yes with my solar setup I lose £1245 a year but I will still get lower electric bills than my neighbors plus if it breakdowns Homesun will repair it if the inverter fails its down to homesun. Being at home 24/7 means we can use a lot of free energy we only put one machine on at a time. If its dull we put the dishwasher on between 12-2pm and washing machine on between 2-4pm in the summer we have 4-6am hours of the night rate which is when we get cheap electric on economy 10 . Both have delay controls and both are low energy machines

Talking of low energy Japan have not fallen in love with 3D TV instead because the tsunami and earthquakes knocked out many power stations they are still not back to normal so they are buying and making more energy efficient electrical goods like TV’s air conditioning etc which will be sold here soon

 

[grandfortune]

TBH, i've learnt most about the green deal from this thread than any other.

 

[finchy]

Great thread ....nice little catch up on the in's and out's. I think the moral is not to have any, grasp opportunity when it comes, didn't the "gold rush" teach us anything ??

 

[Earthstore]

For the sake of the public let's try and put some perspective to this as it appears to be going off in all tangents.

The Green deal is another government idea to help people to make energy saving measures to their properties, as with most government ideas it appears not to have been thought through fully before they announce a start date, therefore it has been postponed for a while, we have heard of this too many times in this industry, but that is politics for you.

In simple terms it is a way for you to borrow the money to make beneficial energy improvements to you homes.
If you feel that solar PV would be right for you, then as it stands at the moment, you should be able to part fund your PV project through the Green deal, also the interest rates will not be as favourable as you could get elsewhere, and it puts a "charge" on you property!

Now, some companies feel this will be an "incentive" for people to install PV, others feel that it will be used by companies to "miss sell" .
It may well be beneficial for landlords, whether private or council, but in my opinion, (for what it is worth) there are better alternatives for the public to finance their PV projects.

The Green Deal may work well for other measures, insulation for example, however as it is not up and running yet, most of this is speculation.

Even though I have personally taken a back seat in this industry for the time being, I would and do still recommend that people install PV, and as others have said, your financial returns are as good as they were in the busy times, but your capital outlay (however you fund it) is less.

 

[Ian-LS]

is there an echo in here?

 

[Earthstore]

is there an echo in here?

Not sure what happened there... but it,s gone now...

 

[puddy]

I am unsure how the green deal will affect those who rent? Seems a big market to miss out on. They will not be able raise the money for improvement or even allowed to without the landlords permission. I wonder if the council for mortgage lenders will approve a 2nd 3rd or even 4th charge on the property that have mortgage?

How will it work if they want solar Central heating double glazing etc? How many loans will you have or is a pot of money for you to use how you want? I had a bad experience with Total Trade Services who installed an oil boiler and new tank under Warmfront will providers be better vetted now? Do you have a choice who you use? If the Government ended up getting ripped off by cowboy firms like TTS what hope is there for the public?

I must say homesun did an excellent job on my solar pv system

 

[SRE]

I'm thinking that unscrupulous landlords will install solar pv along with a few other measures, pay a smaller contribution to pv than they would otherwise have to and allow the tenant to pay the rest through the meter.

 

[SolarCity]

I'd not thought of that before. That could be a bit of a loophole there, especially as the landlord would then claim the FIT.