RCD x1 on fuseboard

[Claire]

I'm a homeowner with no electrical skills. BG electrician came to repair something & said my fuse board is not to standard as it only has one RCD. The property was built in 1874 and most of the current systems were put in place in the 1980s. Lived here 24 years & the tripping mechanism works brilliantly. In my basic understanding you can't have two RCDs on one circuit & he was using modern regulations and applying them to my old property, which can't be done retrospectively, am I right? I am trying to sell, will this be an issue on survey & if so, what will it cost to correct. Thanks

 

[buzzlightyear]

When you sell the property is sold has seen
On the electric front if nowt been done recaintly. So I would not be worried if I was you.

 

[SparkyChick]

Hi Claire,

BG engineers, in my experience, put the frightners on people to try and get them to have more work done.

In simple terms, if the RCD covers all the circuits, it's not ideal but unless there is a real need to change it (for other works, new kitchen for example which requires additional circuits say), if someone asked me to replace a consumer unit in such a setup I'd be asking them why and not necessarily writing them a quote.

Yes, we inspect to today's regulations, but that doesn't mean just because it doesn't 100% comply with them that it's not safe for continued use.

Maybe post a picture of your consumer unit and supply intake.

 

[pc1966]

The regulations are not retrospective so as long as your installation is in good safe condition for the date it was installed then you do not have to do anything.

The usual reason for having multiple RCDs is so if you have a fault, say, on a socket you don't get plunged in to darkness because the lights share the same RCD. For that reason many houses would now get a dual RCD board.

Also recent regulation changes were to increase the safety by extending RCD protection to most circuits to reduce the impact of accidents such as nailing a buried cable when putting up shelves, etc.

BG do not have a good reputation in these parts, so if you do consider getting a new "consumer unit" (CU, as the fusebox is typically referred to here) then some of the electricians on this board might be able to point you in a better direction.
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When you sell the property is sold has seen
On the electric front if nowt been done recaintly. So I would not be worried if I was you.

Depending on the cost to upgrade and the effect on selling price (or delay in finding a buyer) then it might make sense to upgrade.

But still don't get BG involved!

 

[Andy78]

As above BG have a reputation for creating work through unnecessary upgrades. If you have any concerns you can upload pictures of your system here for an unbiased opinion.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - I would not worry about it. If it’s raised you may rightly ignore the suggestion (as it’s not a compliance requirement) or perhaps magnanimously offer £50 contribution to an upgrade. Hope you are able to progress your sale at this terrible time ...

 

[buzzlightyear]

It's amazing. That BG that goes to house and say your wiring needs up grading or because your boiler needs up grading because we can not get the parts even the boilers are 5 years old its common practice for them to say that, being roborts..

 

[Claire]

Thanks to everyone above for the replies, I feel more reassured about it now. I asked him, hypothetically, if the house needed rewiring (always looking for the worst scenario) how much would it cost and he said £5-£7k ?. I don't know how realistic that is. I like the idea of magnanimously offering £50 Wilko. I was worried it would be a big issue on survey - assuming I ever get to that point given that this scourge is not only delaying everything but knocking house prices down too. ?

 

[Strima]

As mentioned before, if you could post a couple of pictures of your board, meter and main supply fuse we could make more informed comments.

 

[Risteard]

The regulations are not retrospective so as long as your installation is in good safe condition for the date it was installed

This isn't strictly true. Regardless of when the installation was erected it will be inspected against current Regulations. Safety issues will be coded as such regardless of whether it was compliant at the time of installation or not. (My usual example is fused neutrals.)

 

[buzzlightyear]

don't know how realistic that is. I like the idea of magnanimously offering £50 Wilko

wow £50... I would ask for a gift voucher for a cruise for what they would charge.

 

[pc1966]

This isn't strictly true. Regardless of when the installation was erected it will be inspected against current Regulations. Safety issues will be coded as such regardless of whether it was compliant at the time of installation or not. (My usual example is fused neutrals.)

That is true, but in my limited experience I have only once seen a fused neutral and it was on the incoming supply on what looked like the 1930's era cut-out. That for sure was one cut-out that nobody in their right mind would have tried to pull the fuse! Why the DNO had not replaced it was beyond me, but sadly the lady who's house it was had other problems beyond the dodgy state of the electrics so seemed unable to sort anything out. As far as I know it is still there

I think most of a 1980s era installation that was in good condition would be OK, only a few aspects would even make a C2 (potentially dangerous) rating I would expect, such as lack of RCD protection for sockets likely to be used with equipment outdoors, etc.

 

[JBW175]

Your best bet would be to get an EICR done by an independent sparky if you’re worried at all. That will give you a view to the age and safety of the installation; and will let you know about any potential problems prior to selling the property.

 

[pc1966]

Your best bet would be to get an EICR done by an independent sparky if you’re worried at all. That will give you a view to the age and safety of the installation; and will let you know about any potential problems prior to selling the property.

That is a good suggestion, the paperwork might be need for the sale anyway, and if you do decide to change the CU a lot of the work in doing it properly is in checking the existing wiring (which is why it is considered best practice to start with an EICR).

But as for the work itself, you should find a good electrician to do it. Some companies offer really low prices and do damn-all work for that low money! A proper inspection can take several hours and means unplugging all equipment and removing light bulbs, etc, so the circuits can be fully tested.

 

[Risteard]

A proper inspection … means unplugging all equipment and removing light bulbs, etc, so the circuits can be fully tested.

I wouldn't agree with this. Insulation testing between live conductors is something I always agree as a limitation for periodic inspection and testing. I wouldn't entertain carrying it out. And I would certainly claim that I carry out proper inspections - and pick up on an enormous number of issues. Inspection is the primary part of the process. Testing merely supplements inspection, and whilst some issues may be discovered this way inspection is likely to uncover the overwhelming majority.

 

[pc1966]

I wouldn't agree with this. Insulation testing between live conductors is something I always agree as a limitation for periodic inspection and testing. I wouldn't entertain carrying it out. And I would certainly claim that I carry out proper inspections - and pick up on an enormous number of issues. Inspection is the primary part of the process. Testing merely supplements inspection, and whilst some issues may be discovered this way inspection is likely to uncover the overwhelming majority.

I don't agree on all of that. Yes, the inspection is very important (as it is for PAT testing but often overlooked). It gives you the majority of age or use-related degradation that way, should show some of the C1 faults (exposed conductors, etc) and it also give you a good insight to the original installation quality (or lack thereof) and any subsequent work.

But...I have to say that I believe testing if also a fundamental aspect: "that will never happen" polarity reversal, looking for open conductors on rings (or imbalance pointing to poor joints), looking for linked or "shared neutral" circuits, and checking for signs of insulation degradation from mice chewing or otherwise damp/bad insulation, checking that Zs is low enough to be reasonable so you have some confidence in the condition of junctions/terminals, etc.

Now you don't have to remove everything for a good insight. You could do testing with L+N -> E to save unplugging or bulb removal and it will give you most of the information you could expect to get from such a test more easily, and without risking electronic devices that are still attached (as you could with a 250V test instead of 500V), but I still believe in testing.

Apologies to the original poster - we don't want to hijack your thread to discuss views on EICR, but that sort of thing can happen!

 

[Risteard]

I wasn't suggesting that testing isn't important. I was simply stating that the inspection is more fundamental and is supplemented by the testing. (Again - I'm not suggesting that testing is unimportant.)

I almost never insulation test at 250V really. One of the few reasons to do that would be where there is an SPD, but these are easily removed.

 

[ipf]

If you carry out a thorough inspection, you should be in a position to assess the state of the existing wiring and decide, as a result, how far you need to go with IR testing.

 

[Midwest]

Thanks to everyone above for the replies, I feel more reassured about it now. I asked him, hypothetically, if the house needed rewiring (always looking for the worst scenario) how much would it cost and he said £5-£7k ?. I don't know how realistic that is. I like the idea of magnanimously offering £50 Wilko. I was worried it would be a big issue on survey - assuming I ever get to that point given that this scourge is not only delaying everything but knocking house prices down too. ?

I would doubt much, that a prospective house sale is going to get going on any estate agents books, in the current crisis. So sit tight and wait at home.

If your house needs electrical refurbishment, that may be reflected in any offers by your buyers. I would not bother with any prior electrical inspections, unless there are obvious concerns for safety. Allow your buyers to negotiate survey's etc during the sale process, should that subject even rise.

 

[SparkyChick]

The issue of EICRs during a house sale is a thorny one. I've recently had cause to go and look at an installation that the seller's EICR claimed was safe and satisfactory.

The EICR was used to mask an un-notified board change (to install RCDs because the original surveyor commented on the lack of RCD protection). The quality of the work was horrendous but because the EICR said satisfactory they proceeded with the purchase. It wasn't until a family member (my AM2 assessor) went to carry out some works that this came to light, he then asked me to go and take a look.

My advice to sellers is that unless you have genuine concerns about the safety of the installation, don't do anything. Let the buyers shoulder the cost, but keep in mind that the buyers spark may be under instruction to 'get us a reason for dropping the price'. They may also be the kind of spark who finds things wrong to generate work.

If the buyers report comes back as unsatisfactory, it might be worth having a spark you trust (recommendation from family, friends, have previously used etc.) spend an hour with the report and the installation to double check the report. I was quickly able to establish the EICR from the seller wasn't worth the paper it was printed on and that's given the buyers some ammunition in trying to recover the cost of having the place rewired which is what it really needs (whether that will succeed or not is another matter but two electricians have visited the property on their behalf and found it to be sadly lacking and not at all as described on the EICR).

It's also worth pointing out that an EICR can have observations on it and still be satisfactory. Observations are classified as C1 (Danger present), C2 (Potential danger - i.e. something has to happen for the issue to become dangerous), C3 (Improvement recommended) and FI (Further investigation). Any C1, C2 and FI observations will result in an unsatisfactory EICR. So if the report has C3's only, this is no reason to drop the price as the EICR should be satisfactory (i.e. safe for continued use).