Rewire

[rjwbrown]

After a bit of advice/clarification re 18[SUP]th[/SUP] edition of the regulation.
Firstly a bit of background, having a lot of work done on a 70's bungalow for my mother in law, altering the layout, lounge/dinner to a kitchen/dinner with separate lounge, new bath room, new external oil boiler and included a complete rewire.
There have been a few points raised by the electrician of which I found a bit strange.
He wanted to move the meter and I said no as it is fine where it is and I did not want to fall foul of any of the supply company regulations.
I wanted one double pole switch for the oven (Total connected load 3.68KW) and the hob (Total connected load 2.99KW) and he wanted two, both are well within 2 meters of the switch position I had in mind. The reasoning here is glass splash backs and the less holes the better a each hole adds to the cost.

Earth bonding to the water main he wanted the stop cock under the kitchen sink as he said “that’s where they go” and I have opted for a remote (Surestop) one which is plastic and the incoming pipe is plastic, and only picks up copper under the bathroom floor. The reason for picking a remote one is that in the event of a leak an elderly person would have problems with the older brass tap never mind getting to it. Does this earth connection need to be assessable? It is going to be under the floor in an area that is not readily accessible as it will be tiled.
The new main CU is having all RCBOs fitted so I’m thinking that any supplementary bonding is only precautionary rather than a requirement.

Garage supply in armored cable not a problem there and I was going to use a plastic garage CU but he said he would have a problem with the termination but I thought what’s wrong with a metal box along side the CU for the termination of the armored cable.

Any comments welcome good or bad and have I missed anything I need to be aware of.

Rob

 

[onions1066]

I really can't help you with the 18th edition as I don't have doc and Marty McFly with me right now it is 17th still.

 

[onions1066]

Sounds like you should give him a size nine up the rusty bullet hole.

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Well quickly...
Incoming plastic services do NOT need bonding
He CANNOT legally move the meter....but this is done a lot
I would go with two isolators but I put them in cupboards, no requirement to put them above the work top

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Oh the garage cu, I would go Metal Clad, I agree with him there

 

[sythai]

After a bit of advice/clarification re 18[SUP]th[/SUP] edition of the regulation.
Think you may mean the 17th

He wanted to move the meter and I said no as it is fine where it is and I did not want to fall foul of any of the supply company regulations.
No he shouldn't be moving that - DNO (supply companies) property

I wanted one double pole switch for the oven (Total connected load 3.68KW) and the hob (Total connected load 2.99KW) and he wanted two
Both can go on one switch thats not a problem

Earth bonding to the water main he wanted the stop cock under the kitchen sink as he said “that’s where they go” and I have opted for a remote (Surestop) one which is plastic and the incoming pipe is plastic, and only picks up copper under the bathroom floor. The reason for picking a remote one is that in the event of a leak an elderly person would have problems with the older brass tap never mind getting to it. Does this earth connection need to be assessable? It is going to be under the floor in an area that is not readily accessible as it will be tiled.
The earth clamp needs to go where it can be easily accessed for inspection, within 600mm of where it enters building or as near as practically possible


The new main CU is having all RCBOs fitted so I’m thinking that any supplementary bonding is only precautionary rather than a requirement.
Not required

Garage supply in armored cable not a problem there and I was going to use a plastic garage CU but he said he would have a problem with the termination but I thought what’s wrong with a metal box along side the CU for the termination of the armored cable.
Nothing wrong with using an adjacent metal box

 

[onions1066]

Or gland into a galv conduit through box if you want to.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

After a bit of advice/clarification re 18[SUP]th[/SUP] edition of the regulation.
Firstly a bit of background, having a lot of work done on a 70's bungalow for my mother in law, altering the layout, lounge/dinner to a kitchen/dinner with separate lounge, new bath room, new external oil boiler and included a complete rewire.
There have been a few points raised by the electrician of which I found a bit strange.
He wanted to move the meter and I said no as it is fine where it is and I did not want to fall foul of any of the supply company regulations.
I wanted one double pole switch for the oven (Total connected load 3.68KW) and the hob (Total connected load 2.99KW) and he wanted two, both are well within 2 meters of the switch position I had in mind. The reasoning here is glass splash backs and the less holes the better a each hole adds to the cost.

Earth bonding to the water main he wanted the stop cock under the kitchen sink as he said “that’s where they go” and I have opted for a remote (Surestop) one which is plastic and the incoming pipe is plastic, and only picks up copper under the bathroom floor. The reason for picking a remote one is that in the event of a leak an elderly person would have problems with the older brass tap never mind getting to it. Does this earth connection need to be assessable? It is going to be under the floor in an area that is not readily accessible as it will be tiled.
The new main CU is having all RCBOs fitted so I’m thinking that any supplementary bonding is only precautionary rather than a requirement.

Garage supply in armored cable not a problem there and I was going to use a plastic garage CU but he said he would have a problem with the termination but I thought what’s wrong with a metal box along side the CU for the termination of the armored cable.

Any comments welcome good or bad and have I missed anything I need to be aware of.

Rob

that plastic garage board....whatch him on that one wont you.....i can smell jointing onto flat twin with a throughbox here for that armoured.....its really bad and i dont like it at all stuff like that......i`v seen it a few times....

 

[Octopus]

After a bit of advice/clarification re 18[SUP]th[/SUP] edition of the regulation.
Firstly a bit of background, having a lot of work done on a 70's bungalow for my mother in law, altering the layout, lounge/dinner to a kitchen/dinner with separate lounge, new bath room, new external oil boiler and included a complete rewire.
There have been a few points raised by the electrician of which I found a bit strange.
He wanted to move the meter and I said no as it is fine where it is and I did not want to fall foul of any of the supply company regulations.
I wanted one double pole switch for the oven (Total connected load 3.68KW) and the hob (Total connected load 2.99KW) and he wanted two, both are well within 2 meters of the switch position I had in mind. The reasoning here is glass splash backs and the less holes the better a each hole adds to the cost.

Earth bonding to the water main he wanted the stop cock under the kitchen sink as he said “that’s where they go” and I have opted for a remote (Surestop) one which is plastic and the incoming pipe is plastic, and only picks up copper under the bathroom floor. The reason for picking a remote one is that in the event of a leak an elderly person would have problems with the older brass tap never mind getting to it. Does this earth connection need to be assessable? It is going to be under the floor in an area that is not readily accessible as it will be tiled.
The new main CU is having all RCBOs fitted so I’m thinking that any supplementary bonding is only precautionary rather than a requirement.

Garage supply in armored cable not a problem there and I was going to use a plastic garage CU but he said he would have a problem with the termination but I thought what’s wrong with a metal box along side the CU for the termination of the armored cable.

Any comments welcome good or bad and have I missed anything I need to be aware of.

Rob

Out of interest who is actually doing this design and work? You or your "electrician"??

 

[Engineer54]

After a bit of advice/clarification re 18[SUP]th[/SUP] edition of the regulation.
Firstly a bit of background, having a lot of work done on a 70's bungalow for my mother in law, altering the layout, lounge/dinner to a kitchen/dinner with separate lounge, new bath room, new external oil boiler and included a complete rewire.

There have been a few points raised by the electrician of which I found a bit strange.
He wanted to move the meter and I said no as it is fine where it is and I did not want to fall foul of any of the supply company regulations.

Not enough information to comment!!

I wanted one double pole switch for the oven (Total connected load 3.68KW) and the hob (Total connected load 2.99KW) and he wanted two, both are well within 2 meters of the switch position I had in mind. The reasoning here is glass splash backs and the less holes the better a each hole adds to the cost.

One cooker control switch is all that is required, connect the two appliances below and behind cabinets via a dual conection plate. Have you made a mistake on the Hob rating, it seems to be very low??

Earth bonding to the water main he wanted the stop cock under the kitchen sink as he said “that’s where they go” and I have opted for a remote (Surestop) one which is plastic and the incoming pipe is plastic, and only picks up copper under the bathroom floor. The reason for picking a remote one is that in the event of a leak an elderly person would have problems with the older brass tap never mind getting to it. Does this earth connection need to be assessable? It is going to be under the floor in an area that is not readily accessible as it will be tiled.

If the pipe entering the building is copper/metal then it WILL need bonding, if plastic, it will obviously not require a bonding connection. All bonding connections to service pipework etc needs to be accessible, and should never be located under the floor!! The boilers pipework may well need bonding, and be confirmed by testing. The incoming Gas pipework WILL need bonding back to the MET

The new main CU is having all RCBOs fitted so I’m thinking that any supplementary bonding is only precautionary rather than a requirement.

There should be no need in your case for supplementary bonding in the bathroom etc

Garage supply in armored cable not a problem there and I was going to use a plastic garage CU but he said he would have a problem with the termination but I thought what’s wrong with a metal box along side the CU for the termination of the armored cable.

Nothing wrong with using a metal adaptable box to terminate a SWA cable before entering a plastic CU. I wouldn't have any trouble myself, terminating directly to the plastic box!! SWA sheath earthing is maintained via an earthing nut or banjo and fly lead.

Any comments welcome good or bad and have I missed anything I need to be aware of.

Rob

Others may have other/further comments...

 

[cdavies33]

Leave your spark alone, sounds like he knows the regs relatively well and he trying do to a better job than required....Hat off to him. For example:

All RCBO's on CU
Glanding straight into a metalclad CU
Wanting the water stop clock under the kitchen sink (much easy for sparks in future when they come to test - first place we look)

What a top bloke!

 

[cdavies33]

Leave your spark alone, sounds like he knows the regs relatively well and he trying do to a better job than required....Hat off to him. For example:

All RCBO's on CU
Glanding straight into a metalclad CU
Wanting the water stop clock under the kitchen sink (much easy for sparks in future when they come to test - first place we look)

What a top bloke!

To add to this..... He's the one who's carried out the 4 year apprenticeship also and I'm sure he has the up to date.... 17th!!! edition regs!

 

[ayjay]

it must be a nightmare for the sparky having you looking over his shoulder all the time

 

[Des 56]

Choose the the most suitable accessory positions from the choice that the installing electrician gives that comply with the regulations

It's best to leave the compliance with the regulations to the electrician,he should be more than aware of what is required and probably is just that



Unless of course,you have doubts about his suitability,but having engaged him for his skill,why doubt his suitability at this late stage

 

[Engineer54]

To add to this..... He's the one who's carried out the 4 year apprenticeship also and I'm sure he has the up to date.... 17th!!! edition regs!

In years gone by maybe!! ...Now day's it is just as likely he is a fast track wanna-be electrician!! lol!!

And that's just the trouble, there is no up front distinction between the fully trained and experienced and the under trained inexperienced guy that turns up on your door step!!

 

[telectrix]

there would be if you got them to fabricate 135 bends in 4" galv. trunking.

 

[stratplus]

If its being rewired wouldn't it be having a new c/u in which case why use all RCBO's? Surely a RCD protected board will be used??

 

[rjwbrown]

Thank you all for your comments, where to start with a reply?

The CU with RCBOs was my idea not his he wanted to fit a split CU with a RCD but you lose 2 ways when you spit the CU and space is a problem OK for 12 way, 16 way just and anything larger would require a change to the meter cupboard.

Bonding the water pipe is a problem area as I can not have the join plastic to metal in the kichen so stop cock under the kitchen sink is out.
Reading the regulations

Where practicable the connection to the gas, water, oil, etc., service should be
within 600 mm of the service meter, or at the point of entry to the building if
the service meter is external and must be on the consumer's side before any
branch pipework and after any insulating section in the service.

There must be some lattitude here other wise why say "practicable" and "should" does not mean has to be or am I reading this incorrectly.
I could understand there being issues if compession joints or screw threaded joints are used on metal pipe work as this could introduce a path of higher resistance but soldered copper pipe work should not present such issues as it should be a good path with very little electrical resistance. That does assume they joints are soldered correctly but if they were not they would leak.

It may be possible to have the bond in the bathroom as the basin is on a cabinet and all the taps are mains fed incuding the hot water. Will need to look at distance from join to cabinet but it will not be anywhere close to the plastic stop cock just close to where it goes from plastic to metal.

May be I should have done all the water pipes incuding the heating in plastic then the problem would not arise

Will be using metal CU's as that is not a problem or going to cost an arm and a leg and should make a tidier job.

As for leaving the electrician alone to make decisions on what goes where, not a chance as I know where the sockets, switches need to go, that does assume the positions meet the current regulations or there is another reason for them to be postioned else where.

I have good understanding of electrics although not quailfied as such and had I been younger would have done the work myself and just had it signed off at the end.

BTW: I am not looking over his shoulder as the job is 160miles away so can only get on site about once a week and just because someone is quailified does not mean they can not make a mistake, we all do but try our best not to.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

how big is this house?

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Why are you bonding an incoming plastic service ??????

 

[rjwbrown]

Three bed bungalow aprox 77 sq meters floor area.

Not bonding to plastic as that to me would be a pointless excercise but to the metal pipe work after the plastic.

 

[telectrix]

as above. if the incoming water service is in plastic, then the spark should IR test from the MET to exposed copper pipework. if the reading is >22k ohms, then it should not be bonded. as for your sockets and switches, you determine at what height you want them. this silly 450mm - 1200mm rule is a building reg. applicable to new builds only, and not to rewires.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Three bed bungalow aprox 77 sq meters floor area.

Not bonding to plastic as that to me would be a pointless excercise but to the metal pipe work after the plastic.

split load hi-integrity c/u would be an option here....less cost and perfectly compliant....whats the earthing arrangements?

 

[telectrix]

if the OP wants RCBOsd, then it's his choice. it's usually the other way round where a customer won't pay the extra. if cost is not an issue, then RCBOs every time where possible. less room taken up in the CU, and dual RCD boards are a compromise anyway.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

if the OP wants RCBOsd, then it's his choice. it's usually the other way round where a customer won't pay the extra. if cost is not an issue, then RCBOs every time where possible. less room taken up in the CU, and dual RCD boards are a compromise anyway.

indeed Tel....just an option for em to think about...

 

[rjwbrown]

Do not believe any checks were done on the resitance of the water services but that said the external boiler may well introduce some earth potential.
Height and position of sockets/switches within the 450/1200mm rule is not a problem as they are is some respects a better position for the elderly.


Not sure of the incoming supply as I'm 160miles away so can not check at this moment in time but will take a good look on my next vist.
As for a split CU as aposed to all RCBOs then the cost was not a major consideration, if my understanding is correct then RCBOs are the better choice if cost is ignored.

 

[telectrix]

the boiler will be bonded anyway through the gas/oil service. and RCBOs are definitely the best option. unless they're protek, of course.

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Going to have to say this...

Threads like this make my blood boil, we are not "Sparkwatch", yes we can answer queries from homeowners ect but we are not here to cast judgment on a fellow sparks work via a third party, especially one who talks like he has had his head in BS7671.

Not impressed

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Going to have to say this...

Threads like this make my blood boil, we are not "Sparkwatch", yes we can answer queries from homeowners ect but we are not here to cast judgment on a fellow sparks work via a third party, especially one who talks like he has had his head in BS7671.

Not impressed

what?

 

[vjsmarwick]

Not only will the outside boiler be earthed via the service pipe oil/gas but also via the supply cable to the electrics of it but your plastic cu in the garage is the way I would go 100% of the time no rusting due to dampness and like engineer I would have no problem terminating the steel wire direct in to it and use earth tag for the earthing of the armouring. There are many ways to do most electrical work so although your spark may be right with what he says there is also nothing wrong with what you want and it's you with the money as for isolators in the inside of cabinets it would not be my choice as mostly become inaccessible or renders some if the space in them as useless and the regs say they Should be accessible. We all have our own ways of doing things and all do what we think is best it does not mean we are right or wrong just individuals

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Glenn we are not here for what this guy wants, well it never used to be like that m8, he had 5/6 issues , he should take them up with the spark not us

 

[Engineer54]

Thank you all for your comments, where to start with a reply?

The CU with RCBOs was my idea not his he wanted to fit a split CU with a RCD but you lose 2 ways when you spit the CU and space is a problem OK for 12 way, 16 way just and anything larger would require a change to the meter cupboard.

And a very good choice too, don't let anyone here convince you otherwise. It is by far, a superior arrangement compared with the compromise split CU

Bonding the water pipe is a problem area as I can not have the join plastic to metal in the kichen so stop cock under the kitchen sink is out.
Reading the regulations

Where practicable the connection to the gas, water, oil, etc., service should be
within 600 mm of the service meter, or at the point of entry to the building if
the service meter is external and must be on the consumer's side before any
branch pipework and after any insulating section in the service.

There must be some lattitude here other wise why say "practicable" and "should" does not mean has to be or am I reading this incorrectly.

There is, but it should in essence conform with the points made above. It's basically to cover any plastic pipework being subsequently installed...

I could understand there being issues if compession joints or screw threaded joints are used on metal pipe work as this could introduce a path of higher resistance but soldered copper pipe work should not present such issues as it should be a good path with very little electrical resistance. That does assume they joints are soldered correctly but if they were not they would leak.

You do not need to bond copper/metal pipework that is being supplied from a plastic incomer. The idea is to bond metal pipework that is bringing into the property, an extraneous earth path. So any copper pipework after an incoming plastic pipe, would be isolated and not require bonding. This can be proved by testing ...over 23k ohms and it doesn't need bonding...
In fact if over 23k ohms it ''Shouldn't'' be bonded, ...as doing so, can actually introduce a potential during a fault condition.

It may be possible to have the bond in the bathroom as the basin is on a cabinet and all the taps are mains fed including the hot water. Will need to look at distance from join to cabinet but it will not be anywhere close to the plastic stop cock just close to where it goes from plastic to metal.

As above comments...

May be I should have done all the water pipes incuding the heating in plastic then the problem would not arise

Will be using metal CU's as that is not a problem or going to cost an arm and a leg and should make a tidier job.


Metal or plastic, the choice is yours..

As for leaving the electrician alone to make decisions on what goes where, not a chance as I know where the sockets, switches need to go, that does assume the positions meet the current regulations or there is another reason for them to be postioned else where.

I have good understanding of electrics although not quailfied as such and had I been younger would have done the work myself and just had it signed off at the end.

Officially your not allowed to actually do that anymore and you would probably have a job trying to find someone to sign it off for you!! lol!! Now you would have had to go through the LABC, and that can be costly.


BTW: I am not looking over his shoulder as the job is 160miles away so can only get on site about once a week and just because someone is quailified does not mean they can not make a mistake, we all do but try our best not to.

***********

 

[rjwbrown]

Going to have to say this...

Threads like this make my blood boil, we are not "Sparkwatch", yes we can answer queries from homeowners ect but we are not here to cast judgment on a fellow sparks work via a third party, especially one who talks like he has had his head in BS7671.

Not impressed

I'm not asking anyone to be a "Sparkwatch" and I'm not trying to cast any judgement on anyone or upset anyone, as you do not know the person doing the work then how can you say "one who talks like he has had his head in BS7671".

All I'm trying to do is ensure the job is done correctly and within the current regulations how else do you check work being carried out is done correctly. Also it appears the regulations are a little ambiguous or at least not as clear as they could be and leave some of it open to interpretation rather than a cast in stone rule. As technology and materials move forward things change and as some of the stuff available now was not around or at least not in common usage when the regs were put together.

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

I was talking about your head in BS7671 not your Electricians, leave the work to the guy who is trained , accept his judgment and methods , that's what your paying for

 

[ipf]

I'm not asking anyone to be a "Sparkwatch" and I'm not trying to cast any judgement on anyone or upset anyone, as you do not know the person doing the work then how can you say "one who talks like he has had his head in BS7671".

All I'm trying to do is ensure the job is done correctly and within the current regulations how else do you check work being carried out is done correctly. Also it appears the regulations are a little ambiguous or at least not as clear as they could be and leave some of it open to interpretation rather than a cast in stone rule. As technology and materials move forward things change and as some of the stuff available now was not around or at least not in common usage when the regs were put together.

Fair enough and thumbs up for using your head on this.
I'm glad everyone having electrical work done isn't doing the same though. See what info and help you could get from a solicitor's forum.

 

[danf1966]

Going to have to say this...

Threads like this make my blood boil, we are not "Sparkwatch", yes we can answer queries from homeowners ect but we are not here to cast judgment on a fellow sparks work via a third party, especially one who talks like he has had his head in BS7671.

Not impressed

spot on Llan .

 

[Octopus]

My money is on the fact that the OP is actually the sparky.

 

[Welchyboy]

Hate these types of customers!

just tell me what you want and how, then leave me alone to do it! if you want to get involved..........stick the kettle on!

Otherwise do it yourself!

 

[john999uk]

As long as the OP is actually using a proper spark I see his questions as valid. In that sometimes someone will tell you one thing as it's easiest for them. As others have said everyone has their methods of doing things and sometimes customers want something different. Some people may say that they can't do something due to 'the regs' when in actual fact it's because they don't normally do it that way and maybe they are not sure.

I once had a row with a solicitor who had 25 years experience in their field. After a number of telephone calls and emails I used government issues legal documentation to prove they were wrong and they begrudgingly accepted I was correct.

Just because someone is qualified and has lots of experience doesn't mean they are always correct.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well all i`l say is this:
you do whats required to comply.
you do whats required for conformance.
owt else is extra that the customer wants.