Which Type 2 SPD (preferably without the need for separate MCB) will Fit inti ClipSal CU

[kevkdg]

Hello,

I have a Clipsal consumer unit with two "ways" unused and blanked off and potentially a third available as the Proteus Geyer B16 MCB is labelled as "spare". This consumer unit only contains the main double pole isolator and MCB's. Please see the below photo.

I am getting an EV charge point installed and feel that Surge Protection would be a good thing, especially also given the number of SMART home devices, LED bulbs and other sensitive equipment in the house. Having said that I've not knowingly had any equipment fail in the 15 years I've lived here due to surges!

The EV installer has so far put in a 4 way mini metal consumer unit which only houses a Type A RCBO (IMO B6CR1N40-30-A) taking up 2 "ways". The other two are blanked off.

I would like to have a Type 2 SPD fitted. I understand these typically take up two ways if they are of the type that don't require a separate MCB (from my research these are internally fused as well), otherwise it will need 3 "ways" of space.

Is it possible to have one installed into my Clipsal consumer unit? If so, can anyone point me in the right direction as to which type will fit and be compatible (preferably one that does not require a separate MCB). I understand Clipsal (in the UK) is now Schneider Electric (?) although might be wrong! I also think that the existing MCB's would need shifting left in order to keep the combined cable lengths feeding the SPD under 0.5 metres.

Would I also need one in the new mini consumer unit that serves only the EV Charge Point as well or will one in the main CU protect the whole installation? The new mini consumer unit is connected by two tails from the same henley block as the main CU.

I did consider having a Wylex REC2SPD Double Pole Isolator with integrated Type 2 SPD installed in line replacing my existing Wylex Double Pole Isolator, but this would need the main DNO fuse pulling to swap it over, so not sure how I'd go about getting someone to do this.

 

[kevkdg]

Thanks @Username5836. I did notice that in the UK Clipsal is now Schneider Electric so figured their SPD might be compatible with the CU?

I think the cost of a new CU would be the best part of £1k?

 

[Dartlec]

While it's correct that mixing and matching breakers is not ever approved, SPDs are slightly different - Those from Surge Protection Devices, for example, are clearly not tied to any manufacturer and their view is that they can be fitted into any enclosure since they are not fitted directly onto the busbar (which is the cause of most of the issues with incompatibility).

Having said that, they do specify protection by an MCB, which must of course match the existing board.

Clipsal are now Schneider Electric, although I'm not sure of the compatibility of their MCBs - Schneider are actually quite good in maintaining compatibility with old ranges so there may be a chance but it would need some research.

In the situation you have, the Wylex REC2SPD would probably be a good option and any suitably competent electrician would be able to liaise with the DNO in terms of fuse being removed if necessary when they do the work.

Alternatively, if the distances work, it may not cost much to have the current 4 way enclosure changed to a 6 or 7 way that would allow for SPD install. What brand is that? The enclosures are not that expensive separately, though space may be a factor...

It may also be possible to mount a separate enclosure with one in the same area - you only need one SPD within the required distance of the source of the supply, not one in each board. In fact, often the limiting length of cabling means that it's hard to fit one in a situation where there is any length of tails to multiple boards from the source.

I'm not sure which current SPD manufacturers don't specify an MCB any more - I believe some did originally (Fusebox and Hager I think at one point), but have since changed their stance and now require an MCB.

Your best bet may be to get quotes for installing an SPD and let those quoting worry about how best to do it to comply with the regulations.

It may well be worth getting a quote for a new consumer unit with RCBO protection to replace the one you have to compare, and then balance the costs against the protection improvement you would get and then make a decision. This forum can certainly give you a steer as to whether quotes are reasonable or not.

I'd say that if you already have surge protection extensions on any high value electronics (TV, etc), then it may be best to consider upgrading the CU in the medium future, which will likely then include SPD protection...

 

[pc1966]

Having SPD is good in terms of protecting electronics from mains born surges, but the most glaring aspect of your CU is the lack of any RCD protection for you and your family against electric shock and, to a lesser degree, to reduce fire risk.

Also curious are the 3 unknown circuits! (At least as far as labels are concerned).

Personally I would be looking at a new CU with SPD and using RCBOs instead of dual RCD/MCBs. The cost of that is not too bad these days for the likes of Fusebox brand. There are others that are worth considering as well but cost a bit more such as Wylex/Crabtree, Hager, and Schneider.

 

[kevkdg]

Also curious are the 3 unknown circuits! (At least as far as labels are concerned).

I think this is more a labelling issue, as I know number 6 is the feed to the external garage.

but the most glaring aspect of your CU is the lack of any RCD protection for you and your family against electric shock and, to a lesser degree, to reduce fire risk.

Out of interest, when were RCD's part of the regs as I am wondering how old the CU might be?

 

[pc1966]

Just to add, the usual guidance for CU changing is to have the system inspected (EICR) so you know up-front about what needs done. If everything is in good condition and done to recent regulations than it is only a CU change to be done, tested and certified.

However, it is quite common to find small problems that need fixing, such as a ring final circuit with one ring open, or a "borrowed neutral" between upstairs and downstairs lighting. Those are usually fairly cheap to fix. Occasionally something more serious is found that can be expensive.

If inspected before the change, rather than afterwards when it is being tested, then you know and the electrician know what is likely involved and less arguments over costing, etc.

 

[pc1966]

Out of interest, when were RCD's part of the regs as I am wondering how old the CU might be?

Off hand I don't know the point when they are made more or less mandatory for indoor sockets, etc, as I remember 16th edition did not, and now 18th does.

At a glance your looks like 15-20 years old, but someone like @westward10 is far better at identifying things then myself!

 

[westward10]

No expert on Clipsal but if the main switch is original then it is not going to be older than 30 years as EN60947-3 superseded BS5419 the old standard around 1992.

 

[Dartlec]

The type testing for the enclosure BS 5486 Pt 13: 1989 is noted on the labels below, which I think was also changed - to 60439 in 1991 ish?

Since it mentions 1989, that would date the enclosure to somewhere between 89 and 91 I guess, with perhaps a new switch later - or maybe it was right at the switch over point so had bits from each.

Hopefully the Proteus breaker is actually spare and not taking a load, since that's the only one that is not type compatible at the moment...

 

[kevkdg]

Hopefully the Proteus breaker is actually spare and not taking a load, since that's the only one that is not type compatible at the moment...

Thanks... I will switch it off and see if it cuts power to anything. By not being "type compatible" does this mean it's not compatible with the CU? If so I wonder why it's apparently not in use but in the CU...

 

[kevkdg]

Just to add, the usual guidance for CU changing is to have the system inspected (EICR) so you know up-front about what needs done. If everything is in good condition and done to recent regulations than it is only a CU change to be done, tested and certified.

Thanks, that's great advice

 

[Zerax]

Taking my Electrician hat off and replacing it with my Home Owner one... that board looks a bit of a mess and as I'm having an EVCP installed... I'd be taking the opportunity to upgrade it to full RCBO with SPD. As a minimum, I'd want some RCD protection (which you may have, but can't see it in the pic) and a proper EICR (from someone that I trusted) so that I at least understand what's going on with that installation.

But that's just me.... others may live closer to the edge.

 

[Dartlec]

Thanks... I will switch it off and see if it cuts power to anything. By not being "type compatible" does this mean it's not compatible with the CU? If so I wonder why it's apparently not in use but in the CU...

Yes, the breaker isn't approved by Clipsal for use in their CU - and often they are not physically compatible so get forced in and lead to possible loose connections which aren't visible.

It may fit physically well, and if the terminals are tight then it's not necessarily an immediate safety issue, but it's usually a sign that someone has been touching it who shouldn't be and either they didn't know, or that was all they had to hand and didn't care.

 

[kevkdg]

Thanks... I will switch it off and see if it cuts power to anything. By not being "type compatible" does this mean it's not compatible with the CU? If so I wonder why it's apparently not in use but in the CU...

@Dartlec Proteus MCB may be labelled as "spare" but when I flipped it off lots of power sockets went dead!

 

[kevkdg]

Alternatively, if the distances work, it may not cost much to have the current 4 way enclosure changed to a 6 or 7 way that would allow for SPD install. What brand is that? The enclosures are not that expensive separately, though space may be a factor...

@Dartlec Current enclosure installed by EV Charge Point installer in readiness for new charge point (when they bring the right one with them lol). Having said that, just had a call, car has been delayed from April delivery to September!

 

[kevkdg]

In the situation you have, the Wylex REC2SPD would probably be a good option and any suitably competent electrician would be able to liaise with the DNO in terms of fuse being removed if necessary when they do the work.

@Dartlec I guess the Wylex REC2SPD would be fitted in place of the standard Wylex DP Isolator I have. I only wish the SMART meter fitters could have fitted this, but they will only fit their own supplied isolators. Another alternative might be to fir the REC2SPD downstream of existing Wylex isolator, either in line or in parallel (if it can be located close to the Henley blocks due to 0.5 metre rule).

PS - The scrappy bit of wood behind the isolator was put there by the meter fitter as he said he can't mount the isolation switch directly to the wall! I did question his woodwork skills lol.

 

[pc1966]

Thanks, that's great advice

There are some useful and free documents on CU replacement (Best Practice Guide #1) and EICR (Best Practice Guide #4) here:

Best Practice Guides | Electrical Safety First

Electrical Safety First produces, in association with other industry bodies, a range of Best Practice Guides which provide definitive information and guidance on a range of technical subjects.

www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk

A lot of those guides will make sense to a non-electrician with a modest grasp of electrical concepts, but a few points are not obvious!