wiring downstairs light circuits

[driverman]

As some of you know, I'm doing a first fix for family member. I now know that in a modern house its best to do loop method of wiring from switch to switch due to modern day down lighters and light fittings only accepting one cable. I did have a thought though (bear with me) as there are 3 x cupboards on the ground floor of using flush joint boxes in each one to wire the various light switches to etc. I would still loop each LED down lighter together though. so all j/boxes would be accessible for test inspection and maintenance. Anyone done similar? thanks

 

[davesparks]

Yes, I much prefer wiring lighting using the central joint box method and have put them in cupboards before if there is space and it will be possible for anyone to find it again in the future.

 

[driverman]

Yes, I much prefer wiring lighting using the central joint box method and have put them in cupboards before if there is space and it will be possible for anyone to find it again in the future.

Great, I was expecting to put my battered tin hat on again! what type, manufacture do you use? Is there a standard product out there? Possible din -rail connection, wagos?. I've only used J701 I think they were called. Thanks

 

[7029 dave]

As^^^^

 

[davesparks]

J701 does fine for me.

 

[Guest77]

I don't like the joint boxes method myself, however thats choice, theres nothing wrong with it.

 

[vernam616]

I very rarely use 3 plate to the rose, pain in the backside for 2nd fixing and for customers who like changing their own fittings

I tend to wire to the switchs or of late i have been wiring a central joint box which consists of a large plastic adaptable box , series of stuffing glands drilled in, all cables labelled and connected accordingly and then positioned in a place which is accessible

 

[telectrix]

the good old spider wiring, brought from the 60's into the 21st century.

 

[vernam616]

the good old spider wiring, brought from the 60's into the 21st century.

Still wire the cpc's with no sleeving round the outside of the adaptable box irate:

 

[Johnuk]

or just cut the cpc lol

 

[Octopus]

what cpc?

 

[dazza1981]

As some of you know, I'm doing a first fix for family member. I now know that in a modern house its best to do loop method of wiring from switch to switch due to modern day down lighters and light fittings only accepting one cable. I did have a thought though (bear with me) as there are 3 x cupboards on the ground floor of using flush joint boxes in each one to wire the various light switches to etc. I would still loop each LED down lighter together though. so all j/boxes would be accessible for test inspection and maintenance. Anyone done similar? thanks

No problems with that at all, i would still loop out at the switches myself but nothing electrically wrong with your method at all !!

 

[Baker1988]

I per fair the 3plate method but it's just personal preference

 

[Guest77]

3 plate without doubt is a good tried and trusted method, however these days with LED downlights and posh chandaliers wiring through the switches is prefered by a lot of sparks so there is only a pair at the light, I understand that and agree it is a good method, I personally wouldn't create more joints by adding an adaptable box in a cupboard to be the connection unit but it is installed a fair bit these days and again nothing wrong with it, just not my cup of tea.

 

[Knobhead]

Before you all go overboard have a look for the “octopus” wiring system. It’s been around for years. Great for testing and fault finding so long as the central box is accessible.

 

[Octopus]

Before you all go overboard have a look for the “octopus” wiring system. It’s been around for years. Great for testing and fault finding so long as the central box is accessible.

AND labelled properly

 

[driverman]

J701 does fine for me.

I was thinking something on the lines of being flush as opposed to surface box like J701. What about if say an Appleby 665 double metal flush box with a blank plate was used. I've never used Wagos before but could those as opposed to choc - blocks which I would of used years ago.

 

[shanky887614]

3 plate without doubt is a good tried and trusted method, however these days with LED downlights and posh chandaliers wiring through the switches is prefered by a lot of sparks so there is only a pair at the light, I understand that and agree it is a good method, I personally wouldn't create more joints by adding an adaptable box in a cupboard to be the connection unit but it is installed a fair bit these days and again nothing wrong with it, just not my cup of tea.

usually we do 3plate but we do it with a jb next to downlight, can remove downlight to easily gain access if you need to.

 

[Guest77]

usually we do 3plate but we do it with a jb next to downlight, can remove downlight to easily gain access if you need to.

Thats okay if you have a small 20 amp lighting JB, if 1mm2 is used and the downlight hole big enough to get the JB out if required, nothing wrong with it though of course.

 

[shanky887614]

Thats okay if you have a small 20 amp lighting JB, if 1mm2 is used and the downlight hole big enough to get the JB out if required, nothing wrong with it though of course.

we tend to use icage downlights so plenty of space

 

[driverman]

Thats okay if you have a small 20 amp lighting JB, if 1mm2 is used and the downlight hole big enough to get the JB out if required, nothing wrong with it though of course.

Re J/B's in roof space. Should not all J/B's be firmly fixed as opposed to floating? Even if 17th edition whereby cables are clamped entering the J/B's.

 

[Geordie Spark]

3 plate without doubt is a good tried and trusted method, however these days with LED downlights and posh chandaliers wiring through the switches is prefered by a lot of sparks so there is only a pair at the light, I understand that and agree it is a good method, I personally wouldn't create more joints by adding an adaptable box in a cupboard to be the connection unit but it is installed a fair bit these days and again nothing wrong with it, just not my pint of Creamflow.

Fixed that for you Mark.

There will be no charge.

 

[telectrix]

Fixed that for you Mark.

There will be no charge.

and no bloody taste either. creamflow.. YUK.

 

[Guest77]

and no bloody taste either. creamflow.. YUK.

I disagree, a pint of John Smiths is lovely.

 

[driverman]

I disagree, a pint of John Smiths is lovely.

Amazing really, on about wiring lights............and ends up boozing!

 

[Engineer54]

I've never used the central JB method for light circuits, but i'd rather use that method than looping through switches, which is something i've never done and never will. Nothing against neutrals in switch boxes, but only when and if they are needed, and 9 X out of 10, they never will be in a domestic installation.

 

[Rockingit]

I've never used the central JB method for light circuits, but i'd rather use that method than looping through switches, which is something i've never done and never will. Nothing against neutrals in switch boxes, but only when and if they are needed, and 9 X out of 10, they never will be in a domestic installation.

This is an odd occasion when I'm inclined to disagree with you matey. More and more houses are now wanting things like one-touch / remote dimmers, receivers for home automation etc etc, and whilst yes I'd agree that this is a percentage far less than 50%, I'd say it's rapidly developing into far more than your 10%, and growing - especially on higher spec new builds. Having given the matter some thought, whilst I'm not going to stray from loop at ceiling unless there's a good reason (let's face it, there are times when loop at switch DOES make sense) I think I will start using 3c as switch drops instead of 2c on new builds - it's a handful of pence on a domestic job - just to future proof.

 

[Engineer54]

This is an odd occasion when I'm inclined to disagree with you matey. More and more houses are now wanting things like one-touch / remote dimmers, receivers for home automation etc etc, and whilst yes I'd agree that this is a percentage far less than 50%, I'd say it's rapidly developing into far more than your 10%, and growing - especially on higher spec new builds. Having given the matter some thought, whilst I'm not going to stray from loop at ceiling unless there's a good reason (let's face it, there are times when loop at switch DOES make sense) I think I will start using 3c as switch drops instead of 2c on new builds - it's a handful of pence on a domestic job - just to future proof.

As i say if a neutral at a switch is needed FINE, i have no objection whatsoever. As for looping through the switches, no way will i ever go down that route!! It's also a fallacy that less wiring is needed, you'll be using more cable, every switch drop will require a minimum of two cables. I've seen what happens when you have combinations of 2 way switching and/or intermediates at switch positions, ....a total mess of crammed in cables, filling even 45mm back boxes!! No thanks!! lol!!

 

[DPG]

I've never used the central JB method for light circuits, but i'd rather use that method than looping through switches, which is something i've never done and never will. Nothing against neutrals in switch boxes, but only when and if they are needed, and 9 X out of 10, they never will be in a domestic installation.

You obviously don't keep up to date with modern devices and trends eng! Plenty of people now wanting more high tech stuff than just a single pole light switch Daz

 

[Engineer54]

You obviously don't keep up to date with modern devices and trends eng! Plenty of people now wanting more high tech stuff than just a single pole light switch Daz

Working on the bigger projects, i'm probably more upto date with modern devices than most. But i'd still feel confident saying that the vast majority of British homeowners that purchase new builds or want/need a rewire to their property won't be thinking of any of the fancy gizmos you have in mind, and certainly not at every light switch in the house.... Trends take a long time to materialise in the UK and forgotten about a damn sight quicker...lol!!

 

[DPG]

Working on the bigger projects, i'm probably more upto date with modern devices than most. But i'd still feel confident saying that the vast majority of British homeowners that purchase new builds or want/need a rewire to their property won't be thinking of any of the fancy gizmos you have in mind, and certainly not at every light switch in the house.... Trends take a long time to materialise in the UK and forgotten about a damn sight quicker...lol!!

I agree, it's early days yes. But it's the way things are going like it or not. Daz

 

[Baker1988]

Thats okay if you have a small 20 amp lighting JB, if 1mm2 is used and the downlight hole big enough to get the JB out if required, nothing wrong with it though of course.

I usually use the ashley 17th edition coffin boxes for when i put spots in they fit through the hole of the the small spots nicely
Like these ones J501 Hager (Ashley) 17th Edition Junction Box 16A |

 

[telectrix]

i prefer line products kit. much quicker and a bit cheaper also.

 

[Rockingit]

Working on the bigger projects, i'm probably more upto date with modern devices than most. But i'd still feel confident saying that the vast majority of British homeowners that purchase new builds or want/need a rewire to their property won't be thinking of any of the fancy gizmos you have in mind, and certainly not at every light switch in the house.... Trends take a long time to materialise in the UK and forgotten about a damn sight quicker...lol!!

Agreed that it takes time to move a mountain (so to speak) but I think you'd find the front counters of a wholesalers an eye opener!

 

[driverman]

I usually use the ashley 17th edition coffin boxes for when i put spots in they fit through the hole of the the small spots nicely
Like these ones J501 Hager (Ashley) 17th Edition Junction Box 16A |

these boxes then, need not be fixed to the joist?

 

[Octopus]

these boxes then, need not be fixed to the joist?

I'd like to see you try that through a downlight hole!

 

[driverman]

I'd like to see you try that through a downlight hole!

Yes , thats why I'm asking. I would of thought this day and age floating j/boxes were a thing of the past. i can see that i'm wrong though. Hence electricians designing the installation to suit. ie loop in via switches.

 

[Octopus]

Yes , thats why I'm asking. I would of thought this day and age floating j/boxes were a thing of the past. i can see that i'm wrong though. Hence electricians designing the installation to suit. ie loop in via switches.

These have cable clamps - buy a couple and try them, they are ideal in certain situations

 

[DPG]

The regs say (correct me if I'm wrong) that floating junction boxes need to have strain relief at the cable entry points. Daz

 

[trev]

I'd like to see you try that through a downlight hole!

Gyneacologists manage to put things in and out of much smaller holes. One of them was reckoned to be able to wallpaper the front passage through the letterbox

 

[driverman]

The regs say (correct me if I'm wrong) that floating junction boxes need to have strain relief at the cable entry points. Daz

Ok understand......So when doing recessed LEDs say with 2 x cables at each fitting, are fittings designed to terminate both cables direct or best via j/box at each and every fitting?

 

[trev]

Some of them have the terminations for 2 T&Es eg JCC.

 

[jaypp]

The regs say (correct me if I'm wrong) that floating junction boxes need to have strain relief at the cable entry points. Daz

That is one that doesn't make sense to me. You would have thought it more likely for a fixed JB to need strain relief if cables pulled?

 

[jaypp]

Some of them have the terminations for 2 T&Es eg JCC.

Scolmore even have provision for 'loop'

 

[Octopus]

Ok understand......So when doing recessed LEDs say with 2 x cables at each fitting, are fittings designed to terminate both cables direct or best via j/box at each and every fitting?

Or try the Wago lightbox and wago connectors

 

[Guest77]

Scolmore even have provision for 'loop'

Well said eye

 

[DPG]

That is one that doesn't make sense to me. You would have thought it more likely for a fixed JB to need strain relief if cables pulled?

Eh? If the junction box is loose and floating then it can move about, thus loosening cables. Think about it!! Daz

 

[jaypp]

Eh? If the junction box is loose and floating then it can move about, thus loosening cables. Think about it!! Daz

Just my opinion as to a flaw in regs in that unless a fixed JB has cables clipped (easily pulled out) to entry points, the strain relief is more important. Also, it's always fixed JB's that get damaged/lids broke off.

 

[DPG]

Just my opinion as to a flaw in regs in that unless a fixed JB has cables clipped (easily pulled out) to entry points, the strain relief is more important. Also, it's always fixed JB's that get damaged/lids broke off.

It's not a flaw in the regs though - they say that fixed wiring should be just that - fixed! Daz

 

[jaypp]

It's not a flaw in the regs though - they say that fixed wiring should be just that - fixed! Daz

I see your point Daz, movement, metal fatigue, movement loosening connections etc., it's just my view and as said in another post, D/L connectors are provided. Some have no strain relief but are far more likely to suffer 'movement'