I was talking to a guy recently who had had a terraced house left to him by a relative ( lucky bloke!) He had renovated most of it himself, and was one of the 'it's my house, I'll do what I want with it' brigade. He said he had to get a proffesional plasterer in, as it was one thing he couldn't do, but had done plumbing and electrics himself. He said that he had got estimates for rewiring, but simply couldn't afford it. So he bought a copy of the 17th edition, and did it himself. The old wiring was lead sheathed, and from what he said he'd done a good job. My point is, as he said, the wiring is far safer than it was, which can't be argued with. Is it a fair, if not legal attitude? Bear in mind that from what he said the wiring is physically correct, just the paperwork isn't!
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Octopus
Unless this "mate" bought himself a MFT and knows how to use it, who is to say its "physically correct"?
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He says it is correct, but the ignorance of an incompetent is what makes them incompetent.
Only verification and testing can prove safety.
It very much can be argued against that the wiring is safer than it was, as there is no proof of safety, only the word of a diyer. I would much rather use a competently and professionally installed system of any age than a recent diy job.
Only verification and testing can prove safety.
It very much can be argued against that the wiring is safer than it was, as there is no proof of safety, only the word of a diyer. I would much rather use a competently and professionally installed system of any age than a recent diy job.
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Octopus
TBH - when I visit types like this, they get a high price ............ so I don't have to do the work.
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So if the guy now gets a pro in to do an EICR, and it passes?
Doesn't sound like the kind of person to BUY a 17th ed book. Maybe was just the OSG? or maybe just said that he did?
Doesn't sound like the kind of person to BUY a 17th ed book. Maybe was just the OSG? or maybe just said that he did?
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I got this from one of my dad's neighbours. He asked me for a quote to do some outside sockets and pond supplies. Couple of hundred quid. Ummed and ahhed, nah I'll do it myself. The current setup was a right lash up of twisted and taped joints across his workbench.
His son did the same as in the OP. Bragging to me one day about how easy it is and how he bought the regs and rewired his own house. "You don't need to do all that testing, it's just to make sparkies look clever all that rubbish. My mate told me and he helped me do it"
I bit my tongue til it was nearly off.
Now both father and son are not stupid people and not poor people, in fact both very well off. Just stubborn, tight arsed, know it alls. The type that will spend all weekend servicing their car and brag all year about how, after parts, it cost £40 less than a service at the garage.
You're never going to change this breed of person, just as in the OP.
Someone who has DIY rewired their entire house will not entertain any notion of things being incorrect in any way as they don't want to know. The facts remain however, in this case, that competence cannot be proved and neither can the safety of the installation nor compliance with any standards. To say that this must be safer that it was is an absolute nonsense in the absence of these proofs.
His son did the same as in the OP. Bragging to me one day about how easy it is and how he bought the regs and rewired his own house. "You don't need to do all that testing, it's just to make sparkies look clever all that rubbish. My mate told me and he helped me do it"
I bit my tongue til it was nearly off.
Now both father and son are not stupid people and not poor people, in fact both very well off. Just stubborn, tight arsed, know it alls. The type that will spend all weekend servicing their car and brag all year about how, after parts, it cost £40 less than a service at the garage.
You're never going to change this breed of person, just as in the OP.
Someone who has DIY rewired their entire house will not entertain any notion of things being incorrect in any way as they don't want to know. The facts remain however, in this case, that competence cannot be proved and neither can the safety of the installation nor compliance with any standards. To say that this must be safer that it was is an absolute nonsense in the absence of these proofs.
Lovely attitudes. Hope he fries? For f*** sake and you're criticising him? He ordered and bought the regs from Waterstones, up until then he lived in a grotty rented flat and had been burgled twice. He works hard, but is on fairly low wages. He simply can't afford to pay in thousands what he did himself in hundreds. When I say physically correct I mean the right cables, fittings protection etc. A system wired god knows when in lead sheathed cable is safer than a modern system? Are you having a laugh? In actual fact he is paying for it to be tested, that's all he can afford. Most of the little savings he had went on the boiler / fire installation. There really are some nice people on here, aren't there?
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How do you know and how does he know these things are correct with such certainty ?
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Will his house be insured though if it catches fire? and unless he has tested the installation and certified it it may not be right and may not be acceptable to his insurance company. Does he know someone who will say they did the work and issue the correct paperwork? if so no probs.
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Alright Grandad keep your pants on lol
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Octopus
Unless they have training, experience, test kit etc, how can you say that he can do a "safe" job?
Leesparkykent
Esteemed
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@Percyprod...I think you need to chill out abit. The thread title is a question isit not? What do you expect everyone to say? It certainly isn't going to be "what a hero for buying the regs and rewiring his house with no input from a competent electrician"! If he wanted to do this then I feel he should of gone down the proper channels and raised a building control notice and had the 1st fix checked at various stages etc by a council appointed contractor.
Imo your "friend" has done it in an arse about face way...If he had done it the proper way then maybe members would be of a different opinion.
Don't start a thread asking opinions then get all mardy when you don't like the replies because they aren't the same as yours.
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Octopus
So how much do you think the average spark earns per hour, and I mean earn? Not what they charge, what they actually earn, after the overheads are deducted and don't forget all the out of hours work we HAVE to do.
And also, most of us are self employed, so this mean NO PENSION contribution from an employer.......
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If the guy was prepared to lift the boards drill all the joists, plaster over and do the chasing I doubt it would have cost much to rewire a terraced house anyway to be honest. Perobably 2 days hard graft for a good sparky and mate if all prepared for them.
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Octopus
I have a feeling of de ja vus about this................ maybe others following this thread should cast their eyes down this thread:
Best type of lighting in stables - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/best-type-of-lighting-in-stables.123300/
Me thinks the OP is referring to himself but calling him a "friend"
Best type of lighting in stables - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/best-type-of-lighting-in-stables.123300/
Me thinks the OP is referring to himself but calling him a "friend"
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If the guy was prepared to lift the boards drill all the joists, plaster over and do the chasing I doubt it would have cost much to rewire a terraced house anyway to be honest. Perobably 2 days hard graft for a good sparky and mate if all prepared for them.
I thought that myself but gave him the benefit of the doubt lol, He is obviously an enthusiast who likes to keep his hand in if it is the OP.
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The Ghost
To be honest I have always maintained that a domestic house rewire is not really rocket science. The circuits involved are usually very simple and "deemed to satisfy" assuming a fairly basic install. I can see no reason an intelligent person with a bit of diligent research cannot do this. I think the caution would be the insurance and safety (in terms of testing) If he had gone the proper route (Building control) he could have paid a few hundred and attended to that aspect as well. I mean what price safety???
As it is he has broken Building Control requirements law by not notifying and probably made difficult a sale of the house in the future as well as compromising his house insurance, all of which could have been sorted by going the proper routes. To answer the attitude thing, very cavalier!
As it is he has broken Building Control requirements law by not notifying and probably made difficult a sale of the house in the future as well as compromising his house insurance, all of which could have been sorted by going the proper routes. To answer the attitude thing, very cavalier!
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I earn 50K a year for a 4 day week on and 4 days off and do not feel guilty about it. We have worked hard to have the right to earn good money, we are professional tradesman with a highly unique skill.
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It's not rocket science no, but it's not simple either.
Your view is shapped by the fact that you do this sort of work day in day out and for the most part do not have to think about it too much.
The work is indeed fairly straight forwrd, it's the theory behind it that you would struggle with, without experiance and knowledge.
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I don't think you could call a heating system easy if not electrically knowlegable, an S plan or even a basic Y plan would confuse some people lol, I doubt the OP even knows what they are, also connecting up the DB to the meter as well, how did he do that?
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The Ghost
I do agree, I was at a commercial kitchen the other day and a bright young man working there (not an electrician) had worked out all of the loads and what he could and could not put in to the kitchen. I asked him how the diversity affected his calculations, and did he apply C factors to the wiring methods, and so on. I suggested he should speak to an Electrician and get some advice....Ohhh hang on...
Ok let's just agree that anything not done by a fully qualified and trained person is unsafe, so no carpentry, roofing, car repairs etc etc should be done by any one else. I have seen jobs done by so called qualified sparks with all the fancy stickers on their self maintained vans, which of course shouldn't be on the road because they are unsafe, with all the letters after their name that could have been done better than a blind martian. Like it or not, wiring can be done safely by any intelligent person. I was taught the amateur radio course by an unlicensed person. He'd forgotten more than I will ever know. I know safety isn't the same issue here, but the principle is the same.
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You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, but you are repeating yourself.
You have not addressed any of the issues brought up in this thread such as proof of competence, testing to prove safety, compliance with the wiring regulations, compliance with the law, insurance validity etc.
Any intelligent person would address these issues and take them into account.
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Squid
You get knobs in all walks of life, great he inherited a house in Cumbria, if his relatives had been hard working then he would have inherited something in London and been a real smug git, but he isn't and won't be.
Everyone is a smart arse until it goes wrong, I do my own boiler repairs as well as certain jobs on the car and anything else as next week I need to replace a fence......... and service the neighbours wives, no complaints so far.......
Everyone is a smart arse until it goes wrong, I do my own boiler repairs as well as certain jobs on the car and anything else as next week I need to replace a fence......... and service the neighbours wives, no complaints so far.......
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Adam W
It might be safe, it might not be. Who knows? As Andy says above the regs is no 'how-to guide' it's written in quasi-legal speak and wouldn't make sense to anyone who didn't already have some idea of what they were doing.
Pulling in cables isn't rocket science, if you know what you're doing, but then anything is easy if you know what you're doing. The question is whether or not this guy actually does, bearing in mind that everyone seems to think they can 'do electrics' but then leave a trail of cables buried outside prescribed zones and connector blocks plastered into the walls which they had no idea they weren't supposed to do.
Pulling in cables isn't rocket science, if you know what you're doing, but then anything is easy if you know what you're doing. The question is whether or not this guy actually does, bearing in mind that everyone seems to think they can 'do electrics' but then leave a trail of cables buried outside prescribed zones and connector blocks plastered into the walls which they had no idea they weren't supposed to do.
Leesparkykent
Esteemed
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Why didn't they go down the building control route? If they had then they could of completed the work themselves and all would of been above board....
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Was it you that wired this house?
If not, how do you know it's such a good job? Pretty much every spark on this forum that works in domestic sector will have seen some bad DIY bodges, that the home owner themselves did and think is a great job.
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The Ghost
Personally I would not equate (and object to) any of those trades with Electrician, I am sorry to say there is a lot more maths and theory with electrical work, and the consequence of those trades getting it wrong can not be lumped into the same consequences of getting electrical installation wrong. It is much more fraught with danger on a day to day basis. In Germany if you are an electrician you are treated with great respect it seems they understand the technical aspects of the trade are more scientific on a day to day basis, here we get less than an automotive engineer. We are lumped in with plasterers, labourers and such like. Somewhat unfair I think.
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The Ghost
So I just re-wired something done by a Landlord in a commercial kitchen. It was atrocious! Even the way he had installed new cables had caused the IR test to drop to 30% of its possible result just through stressing the cable alone. It is not quite as simple as it seems even the installation of the cables requires particular ways to avoid this stress to cables, even to how you reel off the cable from the drum. Sound pernickety? No it is not, just proper install technique.
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I don't get irate on here, too often, but when you get people throwing such rubbish around, it does get my back up.
I made the 'comment' as an innuendo and, in no way would I wish such upon anyone....even if they do disregard all I stand for as an electrical contractor.
The whole point is that it is quite possible that someone could be seriously injured due to the use of hair brained DIY electrical work, even if the possible perpetrators do believe they are 'qualified' to carry it out.
When I install, even if I'm 100% sure I've done things correctly, test and inspection is required. Anyone can make a mistake, be it major or minor, and serious consequences could result.
I've just had a read through the 'wiring stables' thread
and I've never seen such an embarrassing number of 'dumbs' and 'disagrees'. Must have the hide of a buffalo starting another one so ridiculous.
I think I'll leave it at that.
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DIY gas work is not permitted. Electrical should be the same.
Everybody tries to do something they are not qualified to do. And I must admit I have tried just about everything. (gas included, but that was LPG, and on a barbeque)
Try to be a joiner, cut a bit of wood short, or offline, and the worse is it doesn't look good.
Try to be a decorator. Paint is a messy business. worst case is it doesn't look good.
Even a plumber. Do it wrong, and you can get a little wet.
Gas engineer. Have to be gassafe registered. have to be trained and qualified. Do that wrong and there could be an almighty bang one day
Electricians are well trained, even more so than gas engineers. There should be a register for all qualified sparks such as gassafe.
Get this wrong, and there could be a bang. or not. Electricity is silent. It sneaks up on you and grabs you from behind.
We are trained to do the work and TEST it afterwards, to ensure the end user will be safe. Some members on this forum can be quick to criticise DIY work, and perhaps rightly so. They have had years of coming across DIY bodge jobs and having to fix them.
I am sure the OP's friend has done the work to the best of his ability. However, without proper testing, it is nothing
Everybody tries to do something they are not qualified to do. And I must admit I have tried just about everything. (gas included, but that was LPG, and on a barbeque)
Try to be a joiner, cut a bit of wood short, or offline, and the worse is it doesn't look good.
Try to be a decorator. Paint is a messy business. worst case is it doesn't look good.
Even a plumber. Do it wrong, and you can get a little wet.
Gas engineer. Have to be gassafe registered. have to be trained and qualified. Do that wrong and there could be an almighty bang one day
Electricians are well trained, even more so than gas engineers. There should be a register for all qualified sparks such as gassafe.
Get this wrong, and there could be a bang. or not. Electricity is silent. It sneaks up on you and grabs you from behind.
We are trained to do the work and TEST it afterwards, to ensure the end user will be safe. Some members on this forum can be quick to criticise DIY work, and perhaps rightly so. They have had years of coming across DIY bodge jobs and having to fix them.
I am sure the OP's friend has done the work to the best of his ability. However, without proper testing, it is nothing
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Aye, after all it's Saturday night. Get yourself off to the pub where you can tell the landlord how to pull a pint
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Topical ... cutting corners is a gamble.I tried to be a rally driver once....that didn't end well
( depends who is in the house/car )
And sleeping with the possible consequences !
At the end of the day, it's up to the individual. It's illegal to do gas work unless you are gas Safe or what ever they call it niw, but you can still buy all the gear and do it yourself, most people wouldn't. The same would apply to electrics. Can you think of a law that isn't broken, how many do you break? It doesn't matter to you other than financially. I will never accept that an amateur can't do as good a job as a professional, but of course not always, and believe it or not some even know how to test an installation, after all can't be that difficult, you lot do it!
Leesparkykent
Esteemed
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no I don't believe you at all ....This thread is posted by your alter ego before I banned it New Shower installation help - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/new-shower-installation-help.124165/#post-1320222 I'd seriously consider giving up if I was you.
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You've made no valid points that you have defended in any reasonable or intelligent manner in light of the valid points brought up by electricians questing your views. You have merely skirted them in favour of repeating yourself and providing suspect information about the installation in question.
In short, you're full of it.
In short, you're full of it.
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The Ghost
Time for a new alter ego then @Percyprod your credibility is destroyed now. Personally I think it's @Rpa07 who is behind this. I think work is slack for him at the moment.
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Toneyz
Whilst I was going to comment regarding another member posting about another member burning to death due to their wiring which I thought was a despicable thing to post, I agree with the first part of your post but had to mark as dumb due to the total insult above.
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