Metal CU. Why?

[pc1966]

I think it is true that there are a lot of fires that are electrically started, but I also suspect the majority are not due to fixed building wiring but are defective appliances.

For example, it was a fridge-freezer that started the Genfell fire, the worst in UK recent history. But the main reasons that led to such a great loss of life was lax building standards and, to a some degree, various issues relating to fire-fighting. But usually it is things like tumble dryers that are more common fire hazards it seems.

I can't speak for others but I am in favor of metal CU, it just seems sensible to have something that is reasonably tough and fire-resistant even if the risk from a well-fitted CU is negligible. But as mentioned, a decent grade of plastic that meets fire containment and LSOF behavior would be fine as well.

Perhaps they don't trust industry and/or cheap imports to keep meeting a specific grade of plastic, but "is it metal?" is harder to dodge. Who knows?

 

[StephenRowley]

Is it really that more taxing to install a metal CU than plastic enough to actually worry too mcuh about the requirements for the CU to metal?

 

[LastManOnline]

I think it is true that there are a lot of fires that are electrically started, but I also suspect the majority are not due to fixed building wiring but are defective appliances.

For example, it was a fridge-freezer that started the Genfell fire, the worst in UK recent history. But the main reasons that led to such a great loss of life was lax building standards and, to a some degree, various issues relating to fire-fighting. But usually it is things like tumble dryers that are more common fire hazards it seems.

I can't speak for others but I am in favor of metal CU, it just seems sensible to have something that is reasonably tough and fire-resistant even if the risk from a well-fitted CU is negligible. But as mentioned, a decent grade of plastic that meets fire containment and LSOF behavior would be fine as well.

Perhaps they don't trust industry and/or cheap imports to keep meeting a specific grade of plastic, but "is it metal?" is harder to dodge. Who knows?

I think it is true that there are a lot of fires that are electrically started, but I also suspect the majority are not due to fixed building wiring but are defective appliances.

Agree 100% on this point about the fixed wiring not been the origin of electrical fires. Statistics on this one not easy to come by. Secondly I would have no objection to installing metal CU, s in domestic installs providing there are sound and justifiable reasons for doing so. I struggle a little with the concept of having to adjust the materials because of poor installation skills on the part of untrained/semi trained personnel. I would prefer if the issue was approached from the direction of upskilling the personell

 

[StephenRowley]

I don't think it's necessary because of them expecting poor workmanship. It's just an additional safety precaution in case someone does make a slip up nobody's prefect, although it may have been overly cautious.

What's that old saying "if you haven't done anything wrong you haven't done anything"

 

[Dustydazzler]

it's aknown fact that if Fire Brigade can't determine the cause of a fire, it's always put down as an electrical fault.

I suppose years ago it could have been attributed to old Doris falling asleep with a lit cigarette in her mouth , but hardly anyone smokes these days so Cigarette fires must be on the fall...

 

[James]

Wouldn’t it be nice if you could get consumer units made of glass or other transparent non flammable material?

Might force a bit more pride in some people’s work.

There have been a few installations posted on here that look so good it is almost a crime to cover them up!

 

[Pete999]

Metal CU.

Am curious to know why the UK regs demanded a metal CU. Would it not have been helpful to first investigate what was causing overheating the CU?

Question What are Junior and Senior Trades qualifications issued in IRELAND? out of interest
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Wouldn’t it be nice if you could get consumer units made of glass or other transparent non flammable material?

Might force a bit more pride in some people’s work.

There have been a few installations posted on here that look so good it is almost a crime to cover them up!

Seen a few that need covering up though

 

[LastManOnline]

Question What are Junior and Senior Trades qualifications issued in IRELAND? out of interest
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Seen a few that need covering up though

I assume you meant When they are issued? If nothing has changed since I came out of my time, than junior trades after 2 years and senior trades on year 4.Some sparks would then simultaneously do the C&G equivalent

 

[Pete999]

I assume you meant When they are issued? If nothing has changed since I came out of my time, than junior trades after 2 years and senior trades on year 4.Some sparks would then simultaneously do the C&G equivalent

Thanks Ed, but what exactly are the two Quals, Junior and senior what do they equate to? City and Guilds wise
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I assume you meant When they are issued? If nothing has changed since I came out of my time, than junior trades after 2 years and senior trades on year 4.Some sparks would then simultaneously do the C&G equivalent

OK but what are the CnG equivalent? not an unreasonable question I think.

 

[LastManOnline]

Thanks Ed, but what exactly are the two Quals, Junior and senior what do they equate to? City and Guilds wise
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OK but what are the CnG equivalent?

Apologies. I don't believe the Junior trades has an equivalent in The UK. The Senior trades used to be equivalent to the C&G course B. That's how it was in my time. (For "my time" read "old fogies")

 

[Pete999]

Apologies. I don't believe the Junior trades has an equivalent in The UK. The Senior trades used to be equivalent to the C&G course B. That's how it was in my time. (For "my time" read "old fogies")

Thanks so, Junior trades = Electrician, Senior Trades = Approved Electricians, old fogeys need not apply

 

[LastManOnline]

Thanks so, Junior trades = Electrician, Senior Trades = Approved Electricians, old fogeys need not apply

Junior trades is an examine carried out after the first 2 years of your apprenticeship is completed. Success in that allows you proceed to the Senior. Trades. Pass this and you are now an approved electrician.
Traditionally, if you did, nt pass this exam you would still work as an electrician, but your routes to further opportunities would be restricted. Nowadays however, not passing all your exams would definately be an issue

 

[Pete999]

Junior trades is an examine carried out after the first 2 years of your apprenticeship is completed. Success in that allows you proceed to the Senior. Trades. Pass this and you are now an approved electrician.
Traditionally, if you did, nt pass this exam you would still work as an electrician, but your routes to further opportunities would be restricted. Nowadays however, not passing all your exams would definately be an issue

Agree Mate 5 or 6 weeks at a training centre, a few hundred quid, job done, simples, innit?





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[Midwest]

Here’s a couple of links from Electrical Safety First, a charity organisation in UK, and the IET, with their views on the subject, FYI @Edmond Noonan. There’s various others that give the reasoning, or context if you will.

https://www.----------------------------/media/1258/consumer-unit-connections.pdf

https://www.-----------------------...es/technical-e-news/consumer-unit-mythbuster/

https://electrical.----------/wirin...tection-against-fire-the-fire-officer-s-view/

 

[stewartrossinv]

Having recently retired from Scottish Fire and Rescue, could I correct some misimpressions? Firstly, all fire services in England, Scotland and Wales use a central system for recording incidents. The majority of fires start in the kitchen from human factors. Electrical fires are a much smaller subset of the total - of which fires in domestic appliances such as tumble driers or fridge-freezers are of greater numbers than those listed as supply-related (which would include overheating in the consumer unit).

Fire investigation teams are called to major fires or those where there has been loss of life. Fire investigators look for evidence to support their conclusions, so electrical causes are not assumed as a default unless there is evidence to support such a conclusion.

London Fire Brigade has done a great job of drawing attention to lethal Whirlpool drier faults and Lec fridge freezers, whose spark suppression capacitors were found to go short-circuit and then go on fire. Consumer units fires are much more rare - unless you look at criminal behaviour such as interfering with the meter to feed a cannabis farm for instance!

 

[ipf]

I'm not sure there has been a massive increase in DIY activity for CUs to explain fire matters in recent years.

While you see a few pop up here asking for advice, I suspect the main issue for CU fires has been "professionals" who are useless at electrics. Not just the builders & plumbers who have a go and get berated here, but also a general de-skiling of the trade due to the loss of apprenticeships and the pressure to get qualifications in a few week's worth of a course.

While I am in favour of torque screwdrivers (on the same principle that I would always use a torque wrench for doing a cylinder head, etc) the recent increase in that aspect is probably also down to poorer skills/experience, and maybe poorer products with less tolerance to tightening effort, all down to the same issue.

That's right. The 'domestic installer' system has a lot to do with it, for me. As you say, the general de-skilling. It's a case of dumbing down to suit trade standards.
You could have a domestic installer with very little experience and a qualified spark with 30 years.....if the sparks not registered, scam wise, who would you sooner have testing and signing off a completion certificate?
The old cash cow, basically.

 

[LastManOnline]

Having recently retired from Scottish Fire and Rescue, could I correct some misimpressions? Firstly, all fire services in England, Scotland and Wales use a central system for recording incidents. The majority of fires start in the kitchen from human factors. Electrical fires are a much smaller subset of the total - of which fires in domestic appliances such as tumble driers or fridge-freezers are of greater numbers than those listed as supply-related (which would include overheating in the consumer unit).

Fire investigation teams are called to major fires or those where there has been loss of life. Fire investigators look for evidence to support their conclusions, so electrical causes are not assumed as a default unless there is evidence to support such a conclusion.

London Fire Brigade has done a great job of drawing attention to lethal Whirlpool drier faults and Lec fridge freezers, whose spark suppression capacitors were found to go short-circuit and then go on fire. Consumer units fires are much more rare - unless you look at criminal behaviour such as interfering with the meter to feed a cannabis farm for instance!

A very helpful post. And it bears out, in my view what the average spark experiences as alluded to already by pc1966. Fixed wiring would appear to be the least problematic area in electrical fires and appliances the major contributor.
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Here’s a couple of links from Electrical Safety First, a charity organisation in UK, and the IET, with their views on the subject, FYI @Edmond Noonan. There’s various others that give the reasoning, or context if you will.

https://www.----------------------------/media/1258/consumer-unit-connections.pdf

https://www.-----------------------...es/technical-e-news/consumer-unit-mythbuster/

https://electrical.------.org/wirin...tection-against-fire-the-fire-officer-s-view/

Good read. Thanks for posting those links. I am a big fan of Electrical Safety First. They have always been prepared to stick their heads above the parapet and go against the flow. Respect. They have (like pc1966) really highlighted the degree to which poor workmanship has contributed to problems. That comes as a surprise to me. It's so far not an issue overhere but of course things can change. Unfortunately that final link did, nt work. Looks interesting. As, firemen are obviously on the front line and have firsthand experience of the real issues

 

[Midwest]

That's right. The 'domestic installer' system has a lot to do with it, for me. As you say, the general de-skilling. It's a case of dumbing down to suit trade standards.
You could have a domestic installer with very little experience and a qualified spark with 30 years.....if the sparks not registered, scam wise, who would you sooner have testing and signing off a completion certificate?
The old cash cow, basically.

I dunno. There’s some short course sparks on here, and although I’ve not seen their work, because of their knowledge and the way they talk of things, I would be happy to recommend them.

On the flip side of that, I’ve worked with many sparks who’ve served the traditional apprenticeship. Most were good, very professional, but some I wouldn’t trust as far as I could throw em.

 

[Strima]

The spike in fiers also coincides with the start of the installation of smart meters, not that I'm suspicious or anything like that or saying smart meter fitters couldn't even tie their own shoelaces...

 

[Midwest]

The spike in fiers also coincides with the start of the installation of smart meters, not that I'm suspicious or anything like that or saying smart meter fitters couldn't even tie their own shoelaces...

Bear in mind, all new builds get a new meter fitted, have done for years. Do they have specific smart meter replacement operatives?