2391 is it really fair?

Discuss 2391 is it really fair? in the Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification area at ElectriciansForums.net

I

Ionicreds

Hello all, first and foremost I believe an introduction is in order, names ionic and glad to have come across this forum, I'm sure I'll have a very interesting time here. Before I can really continue with this post I have to ask would it be ok for me to recall a couple of quetions from my recently sat 2391 exam, don't want to break any rules, I think I've done fairly well but another 35 days befor I get the results, can't help but feel though the exam in some parts was a bit unfair.
 
Welcome to the real world.

The "standard" of the 2391 has not been dumbed down, unlike the majority of exams these days, and as a result requires a high level of knowledge, combined with a high level of perdantic need for the correct terminology.

The numbers of people passing the 2391 has not increased over time, as a percentage.
 
Well, considerring that 2301 is a CnG level three and compare the exam with 2377 which is level three as well but multiple choice exam which you really can't fail, I am afraid I have to agree: no it is not fair. 2391 is possible the hardest exam to pass and in my opinion a bit undervalued.
 
widdler said:
To the OP, I have the paper sat last week in front of me. Let us know where you thought it was unfair and we can discuss..
Click to expand...
Thanks for ur responses, just to clarify its only some questions that I thought was unfair but with the high failure rate that could be the difference between passing or failing, there is one question in particular that sticks out to me and it concerns volt drop, I can do cable calcs pretty easy and working out volt drop by calculation is second nature to me, the quetion was how do you measure volt drop on an installed circuit and with what instrument, 3 marks I think, now guidance note 3 says its impractical to measure volt drop after the circuit has been installed because it would involve taking a measurement at the source and at the point of utilisation simultaneously,while under load. I for one can't find an explanation on how to do it. I'm not saying there isn't one, unless that was the answer lol. another question was what part of the supply can't be measured? Now that one really did blow my mind. You spend a lot of time studying, so now your at a level were you can name every test in the book backwards if need be, expected results ect. I spent about 10 minits trying to come up with an answer that has no real relevance. why do I have to worry about something I will never do? needless to say i think i got that wrong. There was a question about D.N.O can't recall it but I'd never heard of D.N.O untill that point before. I'm under the impression they throw these type of questions in to put you of your stride, that being said I'm quietly confident I'm going to pass it but only time will tell, but I can't help but feel some questions are a little off the beaten track.
 
The 2391 was intended to be difficult,to make sure that whoever passed and practised inspection & testing was competent to do so and i hope that they do not dull down this qual with multi choice papers,its better for all that hold this that it remains that way,as for being on par with the 2377 thats just laughable,if there was a level 4 or 5 ots where it should be.
 
I've recently done the 2395 (havent got the results yet) and like everyone else spent ages doing old 2391 papers getting miserable about the terminologly having to be spot on and trying to decipher cryptic questions. I've attended countless training sessions and sat plenty of exams but I'm sure that this exam is the only one that is'nt a stamped on pass before you sit it. As hard as it is, the standard has to be maintained, pass or fail.
 
It has to be difficult. Once you have passed it, you will be giving your expert opinion of the overall condition of an installation, as well as giving unbiased accurate information for the rectification and / or improvements to an installation if it needs work carrying out. If you don't have a full understanding (to expert level) of Inspection and Test, how can you be expected to make informed decisions and recommendations.

Cheers.............Howard
 
SirKit Breaker said:
It has to be difficult. Once you have passed it, you will be giving your expert opinion of the overall condition of an installation, as well as giving unbiased accurate information for the rectification and / or improvements to an installation if it needs work carrying out. If you don't have a full understanding (to expert level) of Inspection and Test, how can you be expected to make informed decisions and recommendations.

Cheers.............Howard
Click to expand...

Agreed , yet unfortunatley even Electrical Trainee are being groomed to pass the exams with little or no experience , as shown by the thread on the training section under the heading of " my route to being a qualified spark" or something similar.
It should be made compulsary to have 5 years experience before being allowed to do the 2391 in my opinion.
 
And as the holder of the 2391 cert done way back in '97 , i'm secretly glad its being replaced by the 2394 / 5 as it means the accomplishment of passing the 2391 cant be watered or dumbed down to meet todays expectations of the everyone must pass outlook to education.
 
biff55 said:
Agreed , yet unfortunatley even Electrical Trainee are being groomed to pass the exams with little or no experience , as shown by the thread on the training section under the heading of " my route to being a qualified spark" or something similar.
It should be made compulsary to have 5 years experience before being allowed to do the 2391 in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Agree, they say its not watered down but it seems as easy to get as an asbo now, everyone has one and as you say even people that have not done any form of correct formal training so jury is out on how expert people will be on doing an electrical inspection.
IMO 2391 is much like the olympic ticket, everybody wants one and if you pay enough you have one.
 
i phoned up to get my result, i sat in dumb silence trying to take it in when they said PASS! When the cert arrived, i sat staring at it for ages to make sure it was mine.
 
needasparks said:
Agree, they say its not watered down but it seems as easy to get as an asbo now, everyone has one and as you say even people that have not done any form of correct formal training so jury is out on how expert people will be on doing an electrical inspection.
IMO 2391 is much like the olympic ticket, everybody wants one and if you pay enough you have one.
Click to expand...

And i've got a suspision as to why that is ;
it seems to me that these training centres spend most of the 2391 course going over past papers rather than actually teaching testing principles , which is why people with little / no experience can pass.
Yet how would they fare if they were asked to do a PIR on a 3 storey hotel with 40 year old wiring with no circuits labelled ? ;-)
 
biff55 said:
And i've got a suspision as to why that is ;
it seems to me that these training centres spend most of the 2391 course going over past papers rather than actually teaching testing principles , which is why people with little / no experience can pass.
Yet how would they fare if they were asked to do a PIR on a 3 storey hotel with 40 year old wiring with no circuits labelled ? ;-)
Click to expand...
Collage is the same as - don't kid yourself. I spent three days doing old papers
 
i went over all past papers myself again and again i recon about 90 percent of the stuff didn't come up why it is so difficult is because they can ask you anything in reason and you either have done your homework or know it already i did mine in 2007 just after doing 2360 so that helped with things still fresh in my mind.i hope they haven't dumbed down this exam as i know alot of sparks that couldn't pass it or wont attempt it, i like to drop the fact in when they start showing off there jib cards and mine says trainee then i show i got 2391 on the card and ask where does theres say it.
 
Guys apologies for delay - got paper here, just been super busy.

I will upload it in the morning

:yes:

edit..

okay I tried to upload it but after all the compressions I still couldn't get the pdf below the 2MB limit.

So preferring not to upload 15 or so images of each page, here is a link to it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v48czdqipvpeyv8/2391_July_2012.pdf
 
Last edited:
Thanks widdler top man that whiled away some of the morning over here. To be honest I think that anyone who got that paper would be quite pleased.

I did like question 15 on how you would test live on an earth electrode it would have fooled me into explaining how to do the test with an proper earth elctrode tester, but putting the 500mA RCD made me re read the question again and see the live part.

Paper B was pretty straight forward to be honest. Question 22 the only one that required calculations, and parts B + C would be questions that often appeared in the first section, so that was disappointing, I would like to see more calc questions.

There was also 3 questions on testing sequence I see which I think is a lot to be honest and of course the yearly diagram so all in all I personally don't think it was the hardest of papers.

Sirkit and you are really at the sharp end of this in regards training, and seeing this paper I'm starting to feel that perhaps there is now a good chance for an in-experienced person being "taught" to pass this rather that what I think it should be aimed at and that is someone that as experience in testing and inspection who would require this exam to prove competency.

Do you think that perhaps the industry should be pushing the design and verification course more to employers. I always felt that it was so under valued in that 40% of it was the actual 2391-10(2395) that also included the practical part

I wonder now that the C&G have made it a level 4 qualification if this will be the course to have to "set you aside" from the other, the same as the 2391-10 use to?
 
malcolmsanford said:
Sirkit and you are really at the sharp end of this in regards training, and seeing this paper I'm starting to feel that perhaps there is now a good chance for an in-experienced person being "taught" to pass this rather that what I think it should be aimed at and that is someone that as experience in testing and inspection who would require this exam to prove competency.
Click to expand...

I've been teaching this course a while now, and every time I open up the most recent paper I shake my head harder in frustration. My only hope is that C&G are simplifying it to get rid of the back log of 2391 resits so they can stop writing these papers.
Saying that the 2395 paper didn't seem much harder IMO.

It is a shame.
 
Sparty I have yet to see a job advertised asking for the design and verification qualification, almost all employers ask for the 2391-10 as sign of competence.

I often wonder if it is because of lack of understanding on what the D & V course gives you. I hope I'm not going to be joining the "dumbing" down brigade of the 2391-10/2395 but the paper Widdler posted is certainly not the hardest of ones I have seen, but there again the lads doing that exam may have been the lucky ones, the next might be a stonker
 
widdler said:
I've been teaching this course a while now, and every time I open up the most recent paper I shake my head harder in frustration. My only hope is that C&G are simplifying it to get rid of the back log of 2391 resits so they can stop writing these papers.
Saying that the 2395 paper didn't seem much harder IMO.

It is a shame.
Click to expand...

Thanks mate, I can't give you a like as what you wrote is really alarming IMO.
 
I took the 2391 exam 14 June 2012 and still waiting for results. Does anyone know when I might receive my results. The exam wasn't too bad it's all about how much you put in as to what you want out of it
 
paper looks easier than i was expecting not that i could answer all correctly.
employers may have to check what year someone did there exam and how difficult it was then.
i was hoping for a challenge, a reason to get the books out looks like i will be playing cod today.
 
But did you not feel that some past papers are easier than others? The c&g revision book has simple questions in it, it's not as easy as that.
I think it's a memory test IMO. How will tease o training help you remember hasawa1974 or the eawr1989 or when accoding to law you are a duty holder or a competent person. If I forget my ip's I grab my OSG.
 
very easy paper, i took mine when i was 18 in my first year of the apprentiship back in 2001, i didn't really know what the 2391 was back then or what i was doing but my firm put me in for it and i passed it with no problems first time. i don't know why the pass rate is so low?
 
Hi
On questions 6 do they require all working out as its only a 3 mark question e.g

Rt = 1/r1 + 1/R2 +1/R3
Rt = 1/120 + 1/80 + 1/60
Rt = 0.008 + 0.0125 + 0.0166
Rt = 1/0.0371
Rt = 26.95 ohms

Or is there a shortened method which would achieved the same mark
 
Hi all, I will recently be sitting my 2394 and shortly after be sitting my 2395! The tutor was very down beat on introduction and has mentioned get as many 2391 papers as poss, as this will really help!!! So i asked where to the reply i cant say but try the net:sick:
Soooo i thought i would start here and see if any body has got any??? and if so cud you email them to me many thanks
OOOOh soz any 2392, 2391, 2394, 2395 would be really appreciated as a revision aid. email is [email protected]
Many thanks in advance:yes:
 
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