S

sparksburnout

I could do with some expert advice on equipotential bonding please, as something is nagging me. Now, I understand the practical side of bonding, and can see that having all extraneous metal tied down to the same potential (earth hopefully) will prevent a person being subject to shock currents if they touch the metal casing of, for example a cooker that has developed a fault where a live conductor within it has touched the chassis, at the same time as if they touch extraneous metal. I understand that the metal of the cooker can rise in potential before ADS cuts off the supply, and that if we didn't have bonding that the difference in potential between the faulty cooker and another mass of metal could allow dangerous currents to flow through the victim. I also understand that various metal must be tested to see if it is extraneous or not. What is nagging me is that, in the event that a person inadvertently touches a live conductor (say if an appliance had smashed or they stuck their finger in a lamp-holder) and extraneous metal, this will provide a perfect path to earth for the current and be worse under those circumstances than if it was not bonded. In other words, the exact opposite of a non-conducting environment? Am I missing something or is it deemed that the chance of this scenario happening is much less than the cooker one?
On a related theme my mate has a completely wooden (large) shed come summer/house that is about 30M from his house. Currently he has it powered by a 3 core flex slung through his hedge (I know makes your eyes water). Am I correct in assuming that if this were done using buried SWA that the armour of it should be earthed at the house end only, and that at the shed he should have an earth electrode, to give it it's own earth, because you are not allowed to extend the DNO's earth out of the building it was intended for and that his shed should be TT?? His house supply is TNS. If this is correct, would I be correct in assuming that this is because there could be a difference in the potentials of earth between the buildings and you need a local earth? I am aware this would be notifiable I am just trying to get him to sort it out!
 
I could do with some expert advice on equipotential bonding please, as something is nagging me. Now, I understand the practical side of bonding, and can see that having all extraneous metal tied down to the same potential (earth hopefully) will prevent a person being subject to shock currents if they touch the metal casing of, for example a cooker that has developed a fault where a live conductor within it has touched the chassis, at the same time as if they touch extraneous metal. I understand that the metal of the cooker can rise in potential before ADS cuts off the supply, and that if we didn't have bonding that the difference in potential between the faulty cooker and another mass of metal could allow dangerous currents to flow through the victim. I also understand that various metal must be tested to see if it is extraneous or not. What is nagging me is that, in the event that a person inadvertently touches a live conductor (say if an appliance had smashed or they stuck their finger in a lamp-holder) and extraneous metal, this will provide a perfect path to earth for the current and be worse under those circumstances than if it was not bonded. In other words, the exact opposite of a non-conducting environment? Am I missing something or is it deemed that the chance of this scenario happening is much less than the cooker one?
On a related theme my mate has a completely wooden (large) shed come summer/house that is about 30M from his house. Currently he has it powered by a 3 core flex slung through his hedge (I know makes your eyes water). Am I correct in assuming that if this were done using buried SWA that the armour of it should be earthed at the house end only, and that at the shed he should have an earth electrode, to give it it's own earth, because you are not allowed to extend the DNO's earth out of the building it was intended for and that his shed should be TT?? His house supply is TNS. If this is correct, would I be correct in assuming that this is because there could be a difference in the potentials of earth between the buildings and you need a local earth? I am aware this would be notifiable I am just trying to get him to sort it out!
oh not this again...

OK...any extranious in that shed?
 
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I could do with some expert advice on equipotential bonding please, as something is nagging me. Now, I understand the practical side of bonding, and can see that having all extraneous metal tied down to the same potential (earth hopefully) will prevent a person being subject to shock currents if they touch the metal casing of, for example a cooker that has developed a fault where a live conductor within it has touched the chassis, at the same time as if they touch extraneous metal. I understand that the metal of the cooker can rise in potential before ADS cuts off the supply, and that if we didn't have bonding that the difference in potential between the faulty cooker and another mass of metal could allow dangerous currents to flow through the victim. I also understand that various metal must be tested to see if it is extraneous or not. What is nagging me is that, in the event that a person inadvertently touches a live conductor (say if an appliance had smashed or they stuck their finger in a lamp-holder) and extraneous metal, this will provide a perfect path to earth for the current and be worse under those circumstances than if it was not bonded. In other words, the exact opposite of a non-conducting environment? Am I missing something or is it deemed that the chance of this scenario happening is much less than the cooker one?
On a related theme my mate has a completely wooden (large) shed come summer/house that is about 30M from his house. Currently he has it powered by a 3 core flex slung through his hedge (I know makes your eyes water). Am I correct in assuming that if this were done using buried SWA that the armour of it should be earthed at the house end only, and that at the shed he should have an earth electrode, to give it it's own earth, because you are not allowed to extend the DNO's earth out of the building it was intended for and that his shed should be TT?? His house supply is TNS. If this is correct, would I be correct in assuming that this is because there could be a difference in the potentials of earth between the buildings and you need a local earth? I am aware this would be notifiable I am just trying to get him to sort it out!

red...t that's what RCDs are for.

blue totally wrong.
 
mmmm.... I smell a few suspects who have swallowed the hook, line and sinker for this post! (and it wasnt me who posted it but what an idea ..... )
 
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Hook line and sinker??? No idea what you are on about badged, I am just looking for some experienced advice! Glen - No extraneous at all in shed, just lights and a couple of sockets. Tel - I know the RCD's will trip under the circumstances I described, but these are additional protection? Like I said, is the touching of the live conductor scenario deemed unlikely, and can you see my point? So, are you saying you could extend the DNO's earth to the shed then? Does it not have to be TT?
 
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it's perfectly OK to extend the house equipotential zone. saying no is a myth. the problem you get is with TNC-S where there is extraneous metal in the shed/garage/whatever. you would need a min. bonding conductor of 10mm in that case, and if using, say, 6mm SWA as a feed cable, you'd need to install a separate bonding conductor.

earthing and bonding is concerned with fault situations, not some numpty sticking his pinkies into live equipment.
 
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Hook line and sinker??? No idea what you are on about badged, I am just looking for some experienced advice! Glen - No extraneous at all in shed, just lights and a couple of sockets. Tel - I know the RCD's will trip under the circumstances I described, but these are additional protection? Like I said, is the touching of the live conductor scenario deemed unlikely, and can you see my point? So, are you saying you could extend the DNO's earth to the shed then? Does it not have to be TT?
well...have a look at other threads about extending a PME...then get back to us...caus to be quite frank with you i want to know where this `cant extend PME` is coming from...

its clear who is being told this rubbish....what i want to know is just who is telling it...
 
this ones not even a PME glenn . its a TNS :90:
 
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back in the early days of the 16th ( 90's), it was bandied about a lot. many sparks were told by more experienced guys that exporting PME was not allowed. probably those 15th edition sparks that wanted to use up all the gn/y they could find by bonding anything metal. i once worked at a site where 20 steel tables in the works kitchen were all bonded together.
 
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back in the early days of the 16th ( 90's), it was bandied about a lot. many sparks were told by more experienced guys that exporting PME was not allowed. probably those 15th edition sparks that wanted to use up all the gn/y they could find by bonding anything metal. i once worked at a site where 20 steel tables in the works kitchen were all bonded together.
I can remember specifications where patio window frames and false ceiling t bars had to be bonded as well lol
 
this ones not even a PME glenn . its a TNS :90:
so it is....

- - - Updated - - -

back in the early days of the 16th ( 90's), it was bandied about a lot. many sparks were told by more experienced guys that exporting PME was not allowed. probably those 15th edition sparks that wanted to use up all the gn/y they could find by bonding anything metal. i once worked at a site where 20 steel tables in the works kitchen were all bonded together.
portable tables Tel?
 
depends what you mean by portable. they weren't fixed to the floor, if that's what you mean, but with a bit of effort i could carry one.
 
dunno about the tables, but the cooks should have been
 
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back in the early days of the 16th ( 90's), it was bandied about a lot. many sparks were told by more experienced guys that exporting PME was not allowed. probably those 15th edition sparks that wanted to use up all the gn/y they could find by bonding anything metal. i once worked at a site where 20 steel tables in the works kitchen were all bonded together.


In the 15th days , it was an explosion and everyone went mad with sup bonding and not wanting to export an earth some were saying you bond metal window frames , some saying no , some saying you have to bond metal waste pipes others saying no because of expiating an earth , on the DNO and even today they still don't want anyone exporting an earth on PME systems ,,,
 
there are a lot of assumptions in your first post sparksburnout

you own a copy of the regs . all the answers to your questions are in there ...
 
Quote Ray
it was an explosion and everyone went mad with sup bonding

They certainly did Ray

The spec off a council here once stipulated unbroken 10mm bonding to the Bathroom (in addition to the main bonds)

The cable had to loop every piece of pipe in the bathroom,any and all colds/hots/wastes/rads ( notice the plurals)and whatever else may have resembled something metalic
The council tech guy must have done the full 6 day course to supplement the Bricklaying skills
There again,its what they were paying for and it was also what they got
 
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Help with Bonding
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