Am I Being Ripped Off?

[papafett]

Hi all,

First off - apologies if I'm posting this in the wrong forum, I tried posting in the DIY Advice forum but there's not 'New Post' button for some reason.

I was after a quick bit of advice as I've recently had a lot of work done (partitioning a big room in to bedrooms/bathroom) and I've been really pleased with all the work and pricing except for that of the electrician - my step dad was an electrician so I've seen a lot of work and happy doing a lot of wiring myself but I don't go near fuseboards. We asked the electrican to do a few jobs (adding a few sockets to an existing ring, installing an extractor fan, moving a storage heater 3ft, fitting some lights and switches) but the initial bill he came back with was for £3,000+. I queried this and asked for a breakdown and it all seems reasonable except for a line 'bringing the fuseboard up to date with latest regs' which is £2,000. This fuseboard was only fitted a couple of years ago. When I mentioned that we'd specifically decided NOT to replace the fusebox he said that he *had* to update it to keep everything legal and legit - is this true? No new trips needed to be added to the fuseboard as we only added a couple of lights and sockets to the existing wiring.

Just to be clear, all other contractors have been paid - I'm not trying to rip anyone off but considering how few hours we're spent onsite the bill seems way over the odds to me.

Thanks in advance for any help

Bob

 

[telectrix]

from what you are saying, it looks like a right royal rip-off. a reasonable charge for a new CU fitted is £300 - £400 tops. the only reason it would need replacing would be if work done in the house required RCD protection and the existing board did not have it, or if the CU was " unfit for continued safe use".

 

[telectrix]

whereabouts are you. this looks like a case for an independent opinion which would necessitate a site visit.

 

[papafett]

Hey telectrix, many thanks for the quick response!

whereabouts are you. this looks like a case for an independent opinion which would necessitate a site visit.

I'm in the North East (Northumberland). I was considering getting a couple of independent quotes in from other electricians in the area but before I pay for that (not sure what the going rate is on an inspection?) I wanted to see if I was way off the mark on my thoughts.

 

[telectrix]

one or 2 members in the newcastle/gateshead area i'm sure could help you out here. you may not need a detailed inspection, so the cost would not be excessive. you may not get any response till after working hours, so hang in there.

edit: even british gas only charge £800 + VAT for a new CU, and you know what their prices are like!.

 

[Pete999]

from what you are saying, it looks like a right royal rip-off. a reasonable charge for a new CU fitted is £300 - £400 tops. the only reason it would need replacing would be if work done in the house required RCD protection and the existing board did not have it, or if the CU was " unfit for continued safe use".

I agree with Tel this guy is taking you and yours for a ride, also agree with post 3 did he leave a certificate? does he belong to one of the scams "Napit, Elecsa Niceic? if he has issued paperwork then it will be quite evident which one he claimes to belong to, trading standards might be a way of exposing this crook. Hope you get sorted, I hate people who take advantage of those not aware of whats the going rate,

 

[Spoon]

Hi Bob,
Just to be clear, your comments: "we only added a couple of lights and sockets to the existing wiring." & "all other contractors have been paid". None of the electrical work has been carried out yet and you are just questioning the price of a quote, correct?

 

[papafett]

Hi Bob,
Just to be clear, your comments: "we only added a couple of lights and sockets to the existing wiring." & "all other contractors have been paid". None of the electrical work has been carried out yet and you are just questioning the price of a quote, correct?

No the work has been carried out. The electrician gave us an estimate before hand for around £3,000 but that included the supply and install of a new storage heater, moving water heater electrics to loft and a completely new fuseboard. In the end we didn't go that route - I had a phone conversation with him where he said that if we didn't do those, we could expect to see about £2000 knocked off the estimate. We got the invoice back last week and it was actually more than the original estimate, despite those items being removed (there were a couple minor extra items such as a couple of sockets added to the existing in the garage and one added to existing under the sink).

The thing is, if he can show me what has been done and why it cost so much, I'm happy to pay but right now I can't see anything that I couldn't so myself in a day or two.

 

[telectrix]

without knowing exactly what has been done, sounds like £3000 less the £2000 for the work not done leaves £1000 for what he has actually done. that looks reasonable based on what you have posted.

 

[Darkwood]

This reaks of a rip off you can comfortably get a full house rewire with new board for 3k (Average dwelling size)... 2K for a board change well that's a massive rip off ... £250-£500 including testing depending on circuit numbers would be more a ball park figure.

There is no requirement to upgrade a board thats only a few yrs old but any new work, alterations or additions down will require to meet current regulations and may mean if old board has no RCD cover its the best option to upgrade the board to comply.

Get a written opinion by a reputable company with estimates for the work if they would have carried it out.

Did you get a quote for this work, has it been done already and does your gold plated consumer unit look the bee's knees?

 

[Spoon]

Was the phone conversation recorded or you you have any paperwork showing the new route that was taken and a revised price?
Has the electrician given you a certificate for the job?
So what work had the electrician actually done?

 

[telectrix]

right, mate. you've had 3 or 4 opinions, all in agreement. that's got to be a record for this forum,LOL. what you need is to spend a few quid on getting an independent assessment of what the job's worth and whether or not that new CU was necessary.

 

[papafett]

Spoon/Darkwood,

Thanks for the responses. I'm going to go away and get all the information (full and exact list of the work done, photograph of the fuseboard, etc.) - I didn't want to put this all here initially if the general consensus was that the price seemed reasonable but now it seems my concerns might be valid.

Unfortunately the phone conversation wasn't recorded but it's a verbal agreement and as there is no paper contract I figure I'm within my rights to query the work done. As I say though, that last thing I want to do is short change the contractor for the work he's done (like most I've been on the other end of that) so second opinions seem to be the way to go which I can then submit to him.

No certificate for the work done - I will ask for it (I'm wondering if he may withhold it until he's received payment?)

Thanks again for all the help here - much appreciated.

Bob

 

[Darkwood]

Do all correspondence by Email from now on, express what you understand was said and what you expected cost wise, then ask for a full breakdown listing all costs materials (individual cost) and Labour.... ask that this is replied in paper form or Email.

Wait for response at this point.

If your not happy with his breakdown or he fails to submit a more indepth one then Email that you will challenge the bill is outside what was agreed, you will seek independent professional advice about the work done and expected costings for such work from 2 separate companies and depending on the finding may challenge the bill at a legal level if found to be excessively expensive, if your finding confirm the bill submitted is reasonable for work done then confirm that you will pay in full and apologise for any delay.

The work is not done until the Cert has been submitted he cannot hold back the cert' this is a myth and many companies use it as a scare tactic... If you have not received the certificate then you are not yet liable to settle the bill (bonus in your favour).. if he challenges this then just express you have already been to seek advice on the matter and he cannot withhold the cert' for the intention of using it as a bartering chip for payment. Look at the Cert like a receipt and confirmation that all work done complies with regultion... you need to receive it before any payments are made.

Note ensure all conversations are from here recorded ... paper, email, txt etc any phone/verbal conversations need recording and make sure he is aware of this if you are recording any. Thats why email, txt or letter are the best as you don't need to tell him meaning his replies will be direct without his guard up.

 

[papafett]

I know - really thankful for all the help! Nothing I can do in return except if anyone ever needs computer or website advice, give me a shout. :stooge_curly:
Going to check out local contractors now.

 

[Pete999]

I know - really thankful for all the help! Nothing I can do in return except if anyone ever needs computer or website advice, give me a shout. :stooge_curly:
Going to check out local contractors now.

Good luck Oh any chance you could get me a cheap laptop? only joking Papafett

 

[telectrix]

chancer!. LOL.

 

[papafett]

The first question everyone asks me when they find out I repair laptops/PCs! LOL

Wish I could mate :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Pete999]

chancer!. LOL.

You don't ask you don't get lol

 

[Octopus]

Back to the op, I would email the sparky, thank him for the invoice and ask him for a more detailed description off what he's done, not down to the parts. Also ask him if the price includes labc notification too.

It could be a mistake or the opp could be living in a 60 room grade 2 mansion!

 

[dingledong]

F king L

That's unbelievable
Could have fitted rcbo's cheaper than that

 

[Octopus]

Could the OP post a picture of the "new" fuseboard?

 

[telectrix]

preferrably with the cover removed.

 

[papafett]

Hi all,

Ok I have the updated invoice with me and the full break down is like this - I have put £??? where the 'invoice' doesn't specify a cost for that item (its more like a letter than an invoice):

£??? - Moving lights and switches, sockets as per building works**
£??? - Changing Extract Fan and Duct**
£??? - Updating Fuseboard as per 17.th edition of regulations
£60 - Wiring Garage Sockets + Addtitional Socket**
£??? - All Earthing Requirements
£30 - Kitchen Dishwasher Socket (Spur)
£90 - Wiring and Timer for Bathroom Heater

£2486.00 + VAT

A picture of the fuseboard (its definitely the original housing - I can't tell if the trips have been changed or not but it certainly doesn't look any different and I know we weren't short of spaces as we didn't add anything (in fact the shower is unused) both closed and open:

The items I've marked with a ** are basically adding four sockets (supplied by us) to an existing ring in studwork, fitting two two-gang light fittings/switches in three rooms (wiring to fuseboard already in place, half of the fittings supplied by us), fitting lights in the bathroom and switch (all supplied by us and line to fuseboard already in place) and fitting the extractor fan in the bathroom (fan supplied by us, ducting and outlet already in place).

 

[telectrix]

if that's the original housing, then it's the original board. the Squre D domae boards were phased out about 12 months ago and renamed scheider. although they're still about as old stock gets used up.

 

[Pete999]

Any chance you could remove the cover and sen a piccy?

 

[papafett]

Telectrix - thanks for the update! Do you have any idea what they might mean by 'all earthing requirements'?

As far as I know all the installations used existing rings (additional sockets or spurs) and tapped existing junction boxes (for the lights)

 

[papafett]

Hey Pete,

There should also be a piccy of the board with the cover removed - I'll paste again here in case I screwed it up:



Bob

 

[Pete999]

Hey Pete,

There should also be a piccy of the board with the cover removed - I'll paste again here in case I screwed it up:

View attachment 25865

Bob

Bob still no piccy

 

[papafett]

Hi Pete,

That's weird - I can see it in both my post and in your reply above. I've added to the site two different ways and from teletrix's response I think he can see them ok. Would you mind trying a direct link for me by clicking here?

Thanks

Bob

 

[Pete999]

Hi Pete,

That's weird - I can see it in both my post and in your reply above. I've added to the site two different ways and from teletrix's response I think he can see them ok. Would you mind trying a direct link for me by clicking here?


Thanks

Bob

Nope Bob only the one

 

[Spoon]

How can the guy send you a breakdown without the figures for all the items?
Have you asked him when you will receive a proper breakdown?

I think Pete is asking for a pic with the cover off, so that we can see inside the unit. If you are going to do this then of course switch it off first.

 

[telectrix]

we mean with the cover removed, not just the lid open.

 

[papafett]

Ah my apologies - I'll try and do that tonight.

Spoon - completely agree about the breakdown and I've asked for much more detail (the 'breakdown' I gave above is actually the second improved one).

 

[Spoon]

It least now you have a format that the other electricians can then put their figures to.
Out of interest, when are you getting the other quotes?

 

[Octopus]

Hi all,

Ok I have the updated invoice with me and the full break down is like this - I have put £??? where the 'invoice' doesn't specify a cost for that item (its more like a letter than an invoice):

£??? - Moving lights and switches, sockets as per building works**
£??? - Changing Extract Fan and Duct**
£??? - Updating Fuseboard as per 17.th edition of regulations
£60 - Wiring Garage Sockets + Addtitional Socket**
£??? - All Earthing Requirements
£30 - Kitchen Dishwasher Socket (Spur)
£90 - Wiring and Timer for Bathroom Heater

£2486.00 + VAT.

I could understand £1486.00 + VAT but not the invoice figure.

 

[Darkwood]

For a professional install just looking at the pen written circuits looks a bit rough ...if your going to write in pen ensure your writing it neat, concise and clear....I can barely make some of them circuits out so whether he expects you to or not ...well!... looks like Garage sockets?

 

[Tiny Spark]

For a professional install just looking at the pen written circuits looks a bit rough ...if your going to write in pen ensure your writing it neat, concise and clear....I can barely make some of them circuits out so whether he expects you to or not ...well!... looks like Garage sockets?

A bit like the upside down and slanted danger label.....

 

[ipf]

I could understand £1486.00 + VAT but not the invoice figure.

Agreed....if he HAS done a complete cu replacement and full earth/bonding...doubt it, really.

 

[papafett]

Hey everyone!


So as to close off this discussion - I spoke to the contractor this weekend. While I'm not completely happy with the way he went about things, he did confirm that additional work was done that wasn't listed on the invoice (and showed me) as well as providing a discount off the total so for the sake of keeping the peace, we're going to settle the bill. I also advised that he needs to create more detailed invoices, etc.


Thanks for everyone's help and advice, we would have just paid it and no questioned it at all without the help here!

 

[Darkwood]

Thanks for the update ... it comes down to a breakdown in communication on his part then if extra works were done without your knowledge; its still poor professional practice to have done the extra work and then proceed to hide it in a vague Invoice, he's a supposed professional business man and shows traits of a cowboy company although I'm not discrediting his work but he really needs to show more professionalism.

Glad you found a middle ground at the end.