ASHP - Thoughts please

[dansk]

Hi - As another form of renewable, what are your thought's and experience with ASHP - im thinking of adding them to my services but i read a lot of negative press about them, and from i can see they seem a really good idea for people who are not on the Gas network.

 

[solarsavings]

They work if you get it right..............................end up on ebay if you get it wrong.

 

[SolarCity]

Yeah, we looked at this also. Our thoughts were that there probably wasn't enough work out there to make it worthwhile.

 

[dansk]

umm, thats the tough one isnt it - how much work/demand is there - looking into monthly keyword searchs it seems there is a demand for them.

 

[Worcester]

3 years ago how much Solar PV work was there?

What's your strategic business plan?

Do you want to be a Renewable Energy solutions provider? A green deal installer? An Electrical Contractor?

WHEN you know where / what you want to be and when you want to be there, then you'll know if you should invest in this area.

Without knowing those to criteria then there is no point investing in any training.

 

[dansk]

FYI - underfloor heating is my background, mainly electric with the advent of Solar PV as good source of electric generation and with electric heating the PV was a natural path, now that PV has slowed down a tad its given me the courage and enthusiasm to pursue other technology's to complement the underfloor heating side and not stand still to swept out to sea.

Reason for asking was to test the water with mainly trade guys who on here seem to multi disciplined and get some feed back, all i was doing is putting the feelers out - So Worcester what's your thoughts on ASHP

 

[SRE]

For what it's worth we put the 1st 30 in in England in 2005 and had loads of fun and games. I wouldn't consider going down that route and I'm in a very rural area that should in theory be really good for ashp. They are great for new builds (very small market) if they have been designed properly and in social housing both off the gas grid - pretty small market. Until they improve their COP significantly we won't be looking at them.

 

[dansk]

umm, strong case - is it true most of the horror stories are from poor specification and installation? kinda lack of training from the manufactures?

 

[sedgy34]

try solar thermal

 

[dansk]

Thanks, but i want a different slant and there loads round here doing thermal, but not so much ASHP - now is there a clue in that?

 

[sambotc]

I've installed them, they are not a like for like with a traditional heating appliance, they work off lower flow temperatures so radiators may need re-sizing. A good alternative in smaller properties provided they are well insulated etc, on a larger property your better off looking at biomass. They need to be well sized for the property, too small and they'll work their knackers off and cost a fortune, too big an they'll tick over costing you a fortune. Good design is key.

Down south they seem to offer good potential as the average winter temp is higher than up north, the colder it gets the harder they work the more they cost.

 

[dansk]

Thanks - round my neck of the woods we have a lot of oil boilers and LPG - ive always been interested in ASHP and it wasn't until this weekend whilst exhibiting i got talking to the Husky rep - of course he is going to big them up, but putting the sales BS to one side it seemed a really good idea, i like the electric aspect and even tied in with PV and UFH it would make a great addition in my eyes - but i want to know if im missing something and why isnt the market bigger than it seems? I get the feeling its because of a lack of understanding and poor design at the site survey stage.

 

[sambotc]

Your house has to be very insulated to the point where the ASHP is almost backing up the heat that's already contained within the house. Farm houses etc forget it.

They have their purpose but they are not a be all and end all solution to replacing an oil/LPG boiler.

If you go onto the MCS website there is a calculator on there which you may want to look at to get an idea of the process, quite time consuming. They also released some webinars to explain how they want you to approach the system design etc

 

[dansk]

i understand - so if ASHP isnt the best/or could be better options for off gas customers, whats a better solution to supply hot water, run the UFH?

 

[SRE]

We're oil, installed heatpump, suffered for 2 months freezing then put a new oil boiler in. Well specified they have their place but they are designed to work at 15 degrees from memory and that's what the COP is quoted from. Who is worried about whether a boiler is running when it's 15 degrees outside. As it drops the COP gets less and t about 2 degrees if memory serves me right it's operating at COP of 1. Would you suggest electric instead of oil? If you would then ashp are for you - not for me though, not until they work at their suggested COP at -5. Now there's a market.

GSHP different - again well specified are a great idea, the temperature that they are drawing from is pretty constant - a lot of ground work involved though .....

 

[sedgy34]

Thanks, but i want a different slant and there loads round here doing thermal, but not so much ASHP - now is there a clue in that?

go for the ground source heatpump then just dont do it on my patch lol

 

[dansk]

Sure - this is why im on here asking different views - even the rep admitted on the coldest of days its going to use electric - but if you had PV this would help offset that cost, and warm water UFH to benefit from the low temp water -

Im just talking myself into this one arent i?

- - - Updated - - -

go for the ground source heatpump then just dont do it on my patch lol

you shoudl tell me to "bugger off" rofl

 

[Worcester]

@Dansk

We also have loads of Oil and LPG boilers round here, so I understand the issues, the other comments above are all spot on. The problem with any heat pump retro fit is that they work at a lower temperature than a boiler so the heat emitters (underfloor heating, radiators etc) all need to be differently sized. - Typically underfloor heating pipes will be much closer with heat pumps than boilers.

The design rules all changed (got better) in February and we lost a deal sizing properly against one very well known installer of heat pumps becasue they insisted on a contract sign dated January and so designed according to the 'old standards' and hence were a lot cheaper. However the customer's system is not going to perform properly as both the heat pump and underfloor heating are now undersized by 30%, client could only see the capital cost and wouldn't listen to the design philosphy and running costs ... We are happy we lost that one!

Other problem we have is some of the properties here have the small or microbore central heating systems so the radiators can't be replaced with higher capacity ones either.

A proper heat pump system is not just the pump - it's the whole heating system, including hot water (you'll have to upgrade that cylinder also in one way or another ...)

To answer your original question - it is another string to your bow... and it seperates you from the crowd.

 

[sambotc]

The thing with all renewables is they are very site specific. there is no 1 solution that fits every scenario.

Biomass is a good option although that may be too far out of your skill set to consider (no offense intended but you say you come from an electrical background)

GSHP aren't much better as the installation costs outweigh the potential savings.

Electric boiler solar p.v and a buffer tank? Clutching at straws really!

There's a bit of a gap that needs filling, in reality your better off sticking to a condensing oil boiler and improving your insulation and heating controls etc

(sorry bit slow to respond, was watching the footy as i type away)

 

[dansk]

many thanks to all. No offense regards to biomass, hence my logic which is (in the right circumstance) ASHP, running warm water UFH, and PV to help offset the annuel electric bill, for me the ASHP is the missing link in connecting WW UFH to the PV when the client is on oil or LPG and is looking for a more eco running of the bills.

 

[solarsavings]

Heat pumps will work down to 7c and give a cop of around 2-2.5 @7c any lower and you will be relying on the immersion heater back up and end up spending big bucks to stay cold.

Oil cost at the moment are around 6pkwh, natural gas 4pkwh, lpg 7pkwh and electric 13pkwh so electrical heating via ashp at 7c with a cop of 2.5 is going to cost more than ng but less than oil or lpg. At around 15c the cop will be in the high 3s for most ashp and so the savings are higher with running costs similar to ng with a condensing boiler.

Given that for most of the winter temperatures don't go below 7c ( in this part of the world) they should make sense if you combine them with the ability to switch between either oil or lpg but you're not allowed to do that and comply with mcs requirements

 

[dansk]

facing some stiff tides towards this one, im going on an introductory course to findout more about this tech, i agree its not cheaper to run than Ng, in my mind i was aimimg for the off Gas people really, or the new build market, ive already got my customers due to the UFH market i work in. im going to follow this one and then make my mind up.

ive taken on board everything said here, and apprciate the honesty, thanks.

 

[Noshocks]

Dansk, I like you had been looking into ASHP both in the past and more recently, every time i go through the pro's and con's then ASHP dont quite quite seem to stack up, I have spoken to the guy at Huskey several times as well, he phoned me the other day out of the blue to see if I had decided to move forward with it after last speaking to them a year ago. I cant help feeling that customers are going to come to the same conclusion as me, which is going to make it a hard sell if I am not convinced myself.

 

[dansk]

its a shame TBH, seems to me its a very tiny market and most likley not worth the expense of getting MCS and everything else needed. I am going to keep looking before i decide fully.

 

[solarsavings]

We've been contacted by a couple of high pressure sales companies wanting us to install for them. One of them claims to sell at least ten systems a week at 13 grand a pop for daikin nordics with hydroblock. You need f-gas qualification for split systems as well as a decent plumber.