Bloody loose neutrals!

[jwg]

So I'm running an Ethernet cable through my roofspace, using only the downlight holes for access. Bit fiddly but gets the job done with a little perseverance.

Each downlighter is fed from a junction box. I've been taking them out and for a little while they've been supported only by their cables.

Upon inspecting before refitting - guess which connections have ended up coming out, and guess which ones have held tight?! On four separate occasions, with separate fittings, the neutrals and/or earths have come loose, whereas not even one live has done so far.

Do people just not bother to tighten N/E, as they see them as "less important"?! Seems like the opposite to me - just asking for someone to get a shock one way or another!

I know there's been threads on this in the past, but wanted to share my experience as a DIYer. When I've been remaking the connections I've obviously tightened all three up - unlike the person who wired this place initially!

 

[Marvo]

Yeah, poor terminations and connections are very common, especially so if the contractor was inexperienced or if the connector blocks are poor quality. They're more likely to be a fire hazard than a shock hazard under normal use. It might be worth checking connections other circuits if you've encountered a high failure rate on one.

 

[Darkwood]

Your greivance aside are you saying your data cable is now running close to and possible along the same route as power cables not to say the lighting points too?

 

[jwg]

Your greivance aside are you saying your data cable is now running close to and possible along the same route as power cables not to say the lighting points too?

Thought someone might pick up on that! Just using the holes as access, when the cable is pulled through it's nowhere near the fittings/cables.

I have a lots of experience with data cabling, so no worries on that front. Usually in datacentres though, so none of this routing through downlighter holes nonsense!

 

[jwg]

Yeah, poor terminations and connections are very common, especially so if the contractor was inexperienced or if the connector blocks are poor quality. They're more likely to be a fire hazard than a shock hazard under normal use. It might be worth checking connections other circuits if you've encountered a high failure rate on one.

Good shout. I have wondered if it was someone less experienced doing the "light" side, as the "supply" side seems better so far and hasn't yet failed. That said, flex is obviously trickier to terminate in a screw terminal, so could explain why this side fails first.

Always the neutrals though, never the lives (so far!).

 

[Marvo]

Flex with fine stranded wires is far better in a screw terminal if you use a bootlace ferrule.

 

[jwg]

Flex with fine stranded wires is far better in a screw terminal if you use a bootlace ferrule.

Yes - I have a little experience with -48 VDC stuff, and we use these for this exact reason!

 

[Bobster]

Flex with fine stranded wires is far better in a screw terminal if you use a bootlace ferrule.

View attachment 28822 View attachment 28823

Fine standed flex must be terminated with a ferrule or crimp.

Reg 526.9 iirc.

There re are a couple of exceptions, e.g using spring loaded contacts.

 

[uksparks]

9 times out of 10 I put a ferrule on stranded but there is the odd occasion where it's the end of the day and you cannot find the ends that are burried somewhere in the van. They are well worth using. I think my trouble is that I need to make my ones a bit more orderly.

 

[Bobster]

Buy yourself a little organiser tub, less than a tenner.

Also if you pick it up without the lid closed, it gives the apprentice something to do reorganising it. Haha

 

[uksparks]

I was just looking on eBay at the plastic organiser box things, I think I'd rather see it to ensure its got a tight fit else they will end up mixing together.

 

[Bobster]

Most decent wholesalers will have something behind the counter you can look at. Doesn't need to be fancy, plus if you keep the ferrules in the little zip lock bags rather than loose. Even less chance of mix up.

 

[Marvo]

Fine standed flex must be terminated with a ferrule or crimp.

Reg 526.9 iirc.

There re are a couple of exceptions, e.g using spring loaded contacts.

Not sure what Reg 526.9 says but our local regs would allow the wire ends to be soldered as well unless it was specifically forbidden by the manufacturers of the device being terminated to. It's not a very fashionable method nowadays and it might have been outlawed in the UK. We did receive a small preassembled panel from Italy about a year ago that had soldered wire ends so I'm guessing it's still acceptable in some parts of Europe.

 

[davesparks]

I use the screwfix red organiser cases, the ferrules, wago's and 1362 fuses are all in the same case (i do a lot of domestic boilers so need all these at the same time regularly)

 

[electric will]

I've seen a loose neutral

 

[Geordie Spark]

Yeah, poor terminations and connections are very common, especially so if the contractor was inexperienced or if the connector blocks are poor quality. They're more likely to be a fire hazard than a shock hazard under normal use. It might be worth checking connections other circuits if you've encountered a high failure rate on one.

It could be the professional spark who did the job's Torque Screwdriver was set wrong.

 

[Knobhead]

No wonder I was happy working on 550V or 660V systems, no bloody neutral!

I still can’t work out why anyone would need a torque screwdriver ? ? ? ?

 

[davesparks]

No wonder I was happy working on 550V or 660V systems, no bloody neutral!

I still can’t work out why anyone would need a torque screwdriver ? ? ? ?

I believe they are required for the correct installation of seatbelts in cars, other than that I don't know.

 

[Bobster]

Not sure what Reg 526.9 says but our local regs would allow the wire ends to be soldered as well unless it was specifically forbidden by the manufacturers of the device being terminated to. It's not a very fashionable method nowadays and it might have been outlawed in the UK. We did receive a small preassembled panel from Italy about a year ago that had soldered wire ends so I'm guessing it's still acceptable in some parts of Europe.

526.9.1 In order to avoid inappropriate separation or spreading of individual wires or multiwire, fine wire or very fine wire conductors, suitable terminals shall be used or the conductor ends shall be suitably treated.

526.9.2 Soldered (tinning) of the whole conductor end of multiwire, fine wire or very fine wire conductors is not permitted if screw terminals are used.

526.9.3 Soldered (tinned) conductor ends on multiwire, fine wire or very fine wire conductors are not permissible at connection and junction points which are subject in service to a relative movement between the soldered and the non soldered part of the conductor.

 

[PEG]

No wonder I was happy working on 550V or 660V systems, no bloody neutral!

I still can’t work out why anyone would need a torque screwdriver ? ? ? ?

...They are the same people,who need two mini proximity alarms,on each end of their hacksaw blade...to ensure correct "full-stroke" use during cutting operation... :conehead:

 

[Geordie Spark]

...They are the same people,who need two mini proximity alarms,on each end of their hacksaw blade...to ensure correct "full-stroke" use during cutting operation... :conehead:

Aye ..... and sawing with a seasick motion with the saw rocking about like a ship in a storm.

Dad taught me to use a hacksaw and would often shout "Just because it's called hacksaw doesn't mean you have to hack with it!!"

 

[Bobster]

Aye ..... and sawing with a seasick motion with the saw rocking about like a ship in a storm.

Dad taught me to use a hacksaw and would often shout "Just because it's called hacksaw doesn't mean you have to hack with it!!"

It's surprises me the amount of people who can't cut in a straight line with a hand saw of any description.

 

[Geordie Spark]

It's surprises me the amount of people who can't cut in a straight line with a hand saw of any description.

Yup ...... Tell me about it!!

 

[Marvo]

It's surprises me the amount of people who can't cut in a straight line with a hand saw of any description.

Yeah, I've got a couple of staff can't cut straight with an electric saw either. It's one of those things that annoys the hell out of me but not as much as those who can't use a spirit level.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Yeah, I've got a couple of staff can't cut straight with an electric saw either. It's one of those things that annoys the hell out of me but not as much as those who can't use a spirit level.

Spirit levels Hah!!.......... One of my jobs as a First Year apprentice was repairing those things!

They were made of wood with glass vials recessed in and covered by a brass plate with a slot cut out so you could see the bubble.

The vials were set in Plaster of Paris and the broken one would have to be dug out, the brass end caps taken off
and any damage to the brass parts fixed, then polished & lacquered. The wooden body had to be tidied up & given a coat of shellac or linseed oil.

Brass end caps were refitted with new shiny new brass screws then the new vial(s) were set in place on a piece of plasticine at each end. The level was placed on our precision ground & perfectly level marking off table and the vial adjusted by pressing down one end or the other until it showed a level reading.

Plaster of Paris was then poured into the cavity all around & under the vial and when set the brass cover plate was refitted with new screws!

Job done! (usually in about 45 mins.)

I learned to never take a reading for granted but take one reading then turn the level end for end. In the ideal world the bubble should be in the same place but often isn't so you split the difference between the two readings and THAT is level!

 

[bossian]

Have to agree with the points on boot-lace ferrules.....I instruct all the engineers at my place to always use them for terminating finely stranded sensor cables or the like into connections

 

[bossian]

And this has to be the best ferruling tool ever......