Codes for Eicr...just wondering

[cliffed]

What would you code recess lights in bathroom,no Rcd ,no supplementary bonding.
Also correct IP rated lights l one over bath area Zone 1...230v... woulld you be ok with that, it’s below the height require2.25m I think, you could touch it with out stretch arms.

 

[stevethesparks]

Got to be a C2, with one or the other (rcd/bond) then a C3, but as also below the 2.25m then has to be a C2

 

[pc1966]

Its an interesting one. The BPG #4 has an example on page 7 of a recessed lamp above a bath saying:

"Recessed luminaire above a bath (outside the zones) that is not IPX4 would not warrant a comment"

However, to me that just seems wrong.

That example is almost exactly what I had in my own flat and for years did not bother me as I don't make it a habit to change lightbulbs naked and wet, but for guests I did get a bit more concerned and eventually they got a IP6? light fitted instead. So I would go with the above, if its no RCD and hand-reachable from the bath I would say C2.

 

[Soi disant]

I don't make it a habit to change lightbulbs naked and wet, but for guests I did get a bit more concerned

Yes, I don't suppose they want to see that....

 

[telectrix]

230V IPX4 is allowed in zone 1. the shower is there anyway, and that's more easily reachable than a downlight.

 

[Lister1987]

Use your engineering judgement, stop relying on publications and use your head, pros and cons it if you have to.

 

[brianmoooore]

The 2.25m measurement is from the floor around the bath, not the bottom of the bath itself, which may be up to about 300mm above the floor, putting the light fitting in easy reach.
This is one example of where the upgraded reg. took a backwards step. The original wording was "out of reach of a person using a shower or bath" and would have covered this scenario.

 

[Lister1987]

The 2.25m measurement is from the floor around the bath, not the bottom of the bath itself, which may be up to about 300mm above the floor, putting the light fitting in easy reach.
This is one example of where the upgraded reg. took a backwards step. The original wording was "out of reach of a person using a shower or bath" and would have covered this scenario.

You'd hope commonsense would prevail here? If the water jets from the shower can reach the fitting, irrespective of light mounting height, then the appropriate level of IP rating should be given,, and this reasoning given to the customer. If they don't agree then it's on them, not you

 

[Zerax]

You'd hope commonsense would prevail here?

I'm fairly sure that common sense was officially banned about 20 years ago... it was replaced with the 'entitlement' principle... whereby you're entitled to do what you want unless there's a specific law/rule against it.

 

[Dartlec]

What would you code recess lights in bathroom,no Rcd ,no supplementary bonding.
Also correct IP rated lights l one over bath area Zone 1...230v... woulld you be ok with that, it’s below the height require2.25m I think, you could touch it with out stretch arms.

Bathroom lights are often one of the potential fail issues on the recent EICRs I've done since until even very recently there was no requirement for RCD on lighting and the install of supplementary bonding was patchy at best. I'd say that most new builds up to 2015 I've seen have it only partly - even if it was a requirement.

One other thing that has to be considered though - plenty of the recessed downlights I've seen installed are actually Class 2 - so they don't technically need supplementary bonding even when not protected by an RCD. The same can be argued for 12V fittings, (When installed properly so that 230V cannot touch any metal parts).

On the other hand, I've never seen a properly installed downlight in more recently built properties, as the basic insulation is always well outside the fitting - that could be either a C2 or C3 depending on judgement and how 'accessible' it is.

So the chain I follow is:

1. Is RCD installed
2. If not, are they Class 2 fittings
3. If no, is supplementary bonding present (At this point I usually test between relevant parts with a wander lead to check for effective bonding or not)
4. If no to all the above, then C2

With zones, a lot of firms just seem to C2 anything but obvious 'bathroom lights' in a bathroom, but if they are outside the zones then they do not need to be IP rated so arguably cannot get a C2 for that - though they could be raised as an issue under general 'suitability of accessories for external influences'.

To be honest, I've never actually seen a fitting so badly damaged by steam in a bathroom that it becomes unsafe.

 

[littlespark]

does the regs still say a “fixed” shower head?
No one has them.... they’re all on a slider rail and can be lifted off and hand held....

Makes the zones much bigger if you can spray water at the other side of the room

 

[cliffed]

Bathroom lights are often one of the potential fail issues on the recent EICRs I've done since until even very recently there was no requirement for RCD on lighting and the install of supplementary bonding was patchy at best. I'd say that most new builds up to 2015 I've seen have it only partly - even if it was a requirement.

One other thing that has to be considered though - plenty of the recessed downlights I've seen installed are actually Class 2 - so they don't technically need supplementary bonding even when not protected by an RCD. The same can be argued for 12V fittings, (When installed properly so that 230V cannot touch any metal parts).

On the other hand, I've never seen a properly installed downlight in more recently built properties, as the basic insulation is always well outside the fitting - that could be either a C2 or C3 depending on judgement and how 'accessible' it is.

So the chain I follow is:

1. Is RCD installed
2. If not, are they Class 2 fittings
3. If no, is supplementary bonding present (At this point I usually test between relevant parts with a wander lead to check for effective bonding or not)
4. If no to all the above, then C2

With zones, a lot of firms just seem to C2 anything but obvious 'bathroom lights' in a bathroom, but if they are outside the zones then they do not need to be IP rated so arguably cannot get a C2 for that - though they could be raised as an issue under general 'suitability of accessories for external influences'.

To be honest, I've never actually seen a fitting so badly damaged by steam in a bathroom that it becomes unsafe.

Agree-these are class1 fitting, I can remember when fitting fans in bathrooms they had to be low voltage if anywhere near the bath area.
The Code for the lights I would give C2 mainly for no Rcd protection.

 

[radiohead]

Coding is based on the regulations, not opinions. IPX4 230v luminaires are permitted in zone 1, so no code. The issues of lack of RCD protection and SB are unrelated to the type of luminaires.

 

[cliffed]

Disagree supplementary bonding connects to all exposed conductive parts...Rcd protection required.

 

[UNG]

To be honest, I've never actually seen a fitting so badly damaged by steam in a bathroom that it becomes unsafe.

To be honest you don't find that many bathrooms with steam rooms in them and even then the "steam" isn't at full temperature as above 59°C your skin will start to blister.
I assume by steam you mean the water vapour that subsequently forms condensation damaging the fittings in which case I have seen some quite badly corroded fittings over the years

 

[radiohead]

Disagree supplementary bonding connects to all exposed conductive parts...Rcd protection required.

You seem to think all the issues you have raised come under one code. It doesn't and each issue is treated separately.
1.IPX4 230v lights in zone 1...... Compliant so no code regardless of additional protection.
2.Lack of additional protection by means of 30ma RCD to bathroom lighting circuit......either a code 2 or 3 dependant on the presence of SB.
3. Lack of SB......either code 2 or 3 dependant on the presence of additional protection by means of 30ma RCD to all final circuits within the bathroom.

 

[cliffed]

You seem to think all the issues you have raised come under one code. It doesn't and each issue is treated separately.
1.IPX4 230v lights in zone 1...... Compliant so no code regardless of additional protection.
2.Lack of additional protection by means of 30ma RCD to bathroom lighting circuit......either a code 2 or 3 dependant on the presence of SB.
3. Lack of SB......either code 2 or 3 dependant on the presence of additional protection by means of 30ma RCD to all final circuits within the bathroom.

Agree...2 & 3 are the important ones there C2

 

[Dartlec]

To be honest you don't find that many bathrooms with steam rooms in them and even then the "steam" isn't at full temperature as above 59°C your skin will start to blister.
I assume by steam you mean the water vapour that subsequently forms condensation damaging the fittings in which case I have seen some quite badly corroded fittings over the years

I don't work in the sort of market that has steam rooms (unfortunately).

I've seen a few corroded fittings in my time certainly, but never actually one that has failed in an unsafe way - maybe just luck. Replaced plenty of pendant fittings in bathrooms of a certain age too and most of those have been surprisingly good condition still, even if within zone 1 (or very close to).

 

[UNG]

I don't work in the sort of market that has steam rooms (unfortunately).

I've seen a few corroded fittings in my time certainly, but never actually one that has failed in an unsafe way - maybe just luck. Replaced plenty of pendant fittings in bathrooms of a certain age too and most of those have been surprisingly good condition still, even if within zone 1 (or very close to).

For corrosion at it's worst it has to be the swimming pool plant room and the fittings around the pool itself, the chlorine and the chlorine vapour destroys everything it comes into contact with it is very rare to repair equipment it is almost always a replace