Coding question

[Pretty Mouth]

Good morning all. How would you code the following?:

1 - Electric shower installed without RCD protection, where manufacturer states it is required? Supplementary bonding present.

Normally I would give this a C3, but in this case the manufacturer states RCD required, so am erring towards C2.

2 - No RCD protection for socket outlets in 3rd floor flat that could be used for mobile equipment outdoors.

The flat has a very large, uncovered balcony, so it is likely that outdoors mobile equipment would indeed be powered by sockets in the flat, potentially in a wet environment. For sockets in the ground floor of a building I would C2 this. However, this being a 3rd floor flat, I question if the level of danger is the same. I would imagine that someone standing on the balcony, receiving a shock, would not be at the same risk as someone standing on the ground receiving a shock. Could this be a C3?

 

[James]

My call would probably be,


No 1. C2
No 2. C3

 

[loz2754]

C2 for the shower.
C2 for the socket, as the balcony is uncovered and exposed to rain.

 

[buzzlightyear]

me , 1) c3 circuit supplying locations containing a bath or shower no rcd protection 701.411.3.3
2) c3 for moblie eqipment doubt that 3 floors up .

 

[JBW175]

Number 1 is a definite C2 from me.

Number 2 I could go either way, but would probably err on the side of caution and C2 it if the balcony is uncovered, susceptible to the elements and there’s evidence of use out there.

For the remedials, can you RCBO the circuits? Or looking at a board change?

EDIT

Just seen that sup bonding is present so could be argued that additional protection is present and therefore code as C3.

However, if there’s one place in a house where I’d want RCD protection, it’s when I’m taking a shower.

 

[SparkyChick]

No. 1 - Definitely a C2 and agree with JBW175.... failing that a 61008 RCD mounted in a small enclosure next to the board with some cable jiggling to route the circuit through it.

No. 2 - I'm not sure of the conductivity of concrete but I suspect it's very low unless there is a substantial amount of moisture present. I may be inclined to do a bit of testing.... pour some water in patches at various places and then do an insulation resistance test between those patches and the MET (do a similar test on any metallic railings etc. that may be present). If you're getting high readings (in the order of Mega Ohms) I would probably C3 it. This time of year is a good time to check it as we've been having a lot of rain, which will have been watering the concrete quite well.

It's worth noting that pure water isn't particularly conductive, it's the minerals in it and this is where the concrete may become an issue.

 

[DefyG]

The requirement for RCD for mobile equipment outdoors is generally based upon the user standing on the general mass of earth so could be argued that 3 floors up you are well insulated from earth but as per post #6 might be worth doing some testing so maybe a - FI?

You are inspecting to 18th edition which I believe (as dont have BBB to hand) calls for RCD protection to equipment in zone 1 and circuits serving the location, irrespective of supp bonding so C2 for me.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Thanks for all your replies. Normally I try to code according to best practice guide 4, but these instances don't quite fit the guidance.

Looks like it's a C2 for the shower then, which sits well with me. I don't like the idea of water and electricity coming together without RCD protection, particularly in bathrooms. Out of interest, would anyone have coded differently had the manufacturer not specified an RCD?

I think I'm going to give the sockets a C2 as well, erring on the side of caution.

For the remedials, can you RCBO the circuits? Or looking at a board change?

The EICR is for a friend who rents her flat out, and while I don't want to create unnecessary work, I think a board change is probably necessary. The existing boards (on and off peak) are old proteus BS3871 boards, and I'm guessing current proteus RCBOs aren't going to fit. As @SparkyChick says, I could put RCDs in enclosures external to the board, but by the time I have done that I may as well have changed the board. The testing has already been done after all, which is the bulk of the work.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

These are the consumer units. Can anyone confirm if current Proteus RCBOs will or will not fit them? I suspect not, the busbar is unlike any other I have seen. And not much space even if they do:

 

[loz2754]

Out of interest, would anyone have coded differently had the manufacturer not specified an RCD?

Yes. I would C3 it, provided supplementary bonding was satisfactory. But for me, if the Mfr states an RCD is required, then C2.

 

[Deleted account]

1 C2 definately.

2 C2 or C3 Or no code. I wouldn’t argue with any of these. You are there you’ve got a better understanding of the exact situation. There are good arguments either way.

 

[Deleted account]

Will not.

 

[Simon47]

These are the consumer units. Can anyone confirm if current Proteus RCBOs will or will not fit them? I suspect not, the busbar is unlike any other I have seen.

One option would be to replace all the devices (including main switch) and fit the bus bar that goes with them - then you have a set of compatible components. But by the time you've done that, not much extra work to replace the plastic box as well.

And not much space even if they do:

That's an understatement.

 

[Risteard]

1 C2 definately.

2 C2 or C3 Or no code. I wouldn’t argue with any of these. You are there you’ve got a better understanding of the exact situation. There are good arguments either way.

You can't have no code where RCD protection is now required.

Electric shower always C2 for me irrespective of manufacturer's instructions.

 

[telectrix]

ans a C2 for the CUs, just because they are proteus.

 

[Deleted account]

You can't have no code where RCD protection is now required.

Electric shower always C2 for me irrespective of manufacturer's instructions.

The potential no code was for Rcd protection for outdoor equipment. In theory no out door equipment can or will be used at this property due to the location, however I would not disagree with a C3 or C2 dependant on the circumstances.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Thanks again everyone for your advice. @SparkyChick , I'm going to give your floor conductivity test a bash, it will be interesting to know what reading I get.

 

[Risteard]

The potential no code was for Rcd protection for outdoor equipment. In theory no out door equipment can or will be used at this property due to the location, however I would not disagree with a C3 or C2 dependant on the circumstances.

Yes but there is a requirement for RCD protection for all socket-outlets (up to 63A now?).

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Yes but there is a requirement for RCD protection for all socket-outlets (up to 63A now?).

Socket outlets rated <=32A, 411.3.3

 

[richy3333]

C2 and C2