commisioning fire alarm

[Sb8389]

hi guys,
installed a fire alarm system today at a property that contains 3 self contained flats. I had EU fire alarm company out to go through the specification detailed by the council so we could design something that would be compliant with not only there spec but also bs 5839, now we have installed the system, would you advise we get the install commissioned by the company above who want 385.00+vat to commission the system?
whats involved in commissioning the system and is it something I could do myself or due to lack of experience in this field would you recommend getting it signed of by someone a lot more competent?
im just intrigued as to whats involved as for the price they want im guessing its a little more involved that just standard testing?

 

[The Ghost]

You just need the BS5839 part 1 and 6 it tells you all you need to know about commissioning, catch is they cost £500.

 

[Sb8389]

You just need the BS5839 part 1 and 6 it tells you all you need to know about commissioning catch is they cost £500

Better off paying the 385 then ain’t I if that’s the case haha

 

[The Ghost]

It is not that involved actually and for what it is that is a lot of money. However they may find deviations from the BS standards then it may get quite a lot more expensive.

 

[Sb8389]

It is not that involved actually and for what it is that is a lot of money. However they may find deviations from the BS standards then it may get quite a lot more expensive.

I hope they don’t find any deviations as they designed it for me, from your experience what process do you follow when carrying out the commissioning just so I know weather it’s something I’m capable off or not as I’m not willing to undertake something out my comfort zone.

 

[The Ghost]

Too late in the day to drag my BS5839 out and part 1 as well. It essentially has a commissioning cert in it and then some tests. But actually I decided to look for it and horror of horrors I can't find the part 6 one! Just moved and still not sorted out so you have made me go in a zerg of looking! Stand by.

 

[Sb8389]

Too late in the day to drag my BS5839 out and part 1 as well. It essentially has a commissioning cert in it and then some tests. But actually I decided to look for it and horror of horrors I can't find the part 6 one! Just moved and still not sorted out so you have made me go in a zerg of looking! Stand by.

Haha my bad pal just had look at the prices for the books, can’t believe the price and can’t find anything on eBay either

 

[westward10]

What Grade of system have you installed. Do the flats have a Part 6 system with a separate Part 1 system for the communal areas.

 

[The Ghost]

Check your PM.Essentially whatever system you have installed you are going to check the correct location and type of detectors/break glass call points, sound level of sounders and so on. And check the compliance with BS5839 noting any deviations and so on. But Check your PM will make more sense.

 

[The Ghost]

Yeh the price is insane for a sole trader but a large company they subscribe and get a whole load of BS standards. You can inspect them for free at Newcastle or some godforsaken place up north I hear, and on line if they have computers oop north. I did the C&G course and there is no way round it you have to buy the standards and if you are doing emergency lighting BS5266 et al so you don't get much change out of £1000!

 

[The Ghost]

And the thing is you have to have part 1 and 6 as they reference each other, very cunning! BS5839 that is.

 

[Sb8389]

The council have requested a grade A LD2 system in the communal areas with a heat alarm to the hallway off each flat.
They have then requested a grade D ld3 system to the flats, which to me only requires fire detection to escape routes only, no mention to install any heat alarm to the kitchen which I found strange.(the flat contains a hall, lounge, 2 beds and a kitchen so where do you install fire detection in those areas to comply with the given grading system they require).

 

[Sb8389]

Check your PM.Essentially whatever system you have installed you are going to check the correct location and type of detectors/break glass call points, sound level of sounders and so on. And check the compliance with BS5839 noting any deviations and so on. But Check your PM will make more sense.

Cheers for the PM pal, I have the relevant certificates through napit, it’s just understanding what I’m looking at really and covering my a**e should I say.

 

[Diver233]

Commissioning is the final sign off for the fire systems. The commissioning engineer should check everything, design, installation and test everything to ensure compliance with the three standards involved: BS7671, BS5839-1, BS5839-6.
Whilst on the surface it may seam a lot of money, if commissioning is done correctly in flats and common area it will take them quite a long time.
In my humble opinion, if you wasn’t happy and confident to design the system in the first place, why would you now suddenly think differently for what is the most important sign off (especially if the council are involved).
Don’t even try it without a copy of 5839-1&6

 

[westward10]

Is this an HMO or a block of separate dwellings.

 

[The Ghost]

If you can read what I pm'd you then you will see exactly what it entails. I was in your position and thought I will bite the bullet and do the training which I did. The thing is no one told me to do this work you HAVE to have the standards at around a grand. Which I now have. But they are very clear and easy to reference I wish the BS7671 was set out like BS5839 it is very good indeed.

 

[The Ghost]

When you say fire alarm system do you actually mean a 2 wire fire panel and the whole shebang? Or do you mean Aico wired in system?

 

[Sb8389]

Commissioning is the final sign off for the fire systems. The commissioning engineer should check everything, design, installation and test everything to ensure compliance with the three standards involved: BS7671, BS5839-1, BS5839-6.
Whilst on the surface it may seam a lot of money, if commissioning is done correctly in flats and common area it will take them quite a long time.
In my humble opinion, if you wasn’t happy and confident to design the system in the first place, why would you now suddenly think differently for what is the most important sign off (especially if the council are involved).
Don’t even try it without a copy of 5839-1&6

I don’t disagree pal

 

[Sb8389]

Commissioning is the final sign off for the fire systems. The commissioning engineer should check everything, design, installation and test everything to ensure compliance with the three standards involved: BS7671, BS5839-1, BS5839-6.
Whilst on the surface it may seam a lot of money, if commissioning is done correctly in flats and common area it will take them quite a long time.
In my humble opinion, if you wasn’t happy and confident to design the system in the first place, why would you now suddenly think differently for what is the most important sign off (especially if the council are involved).
Don’t even try it without a copy of 5839-1&6

I don’t disagree pal

Is this an HMO or a block of separate dwellings.

it’s a 3storey property with 3 self contained flats, not an HMO

 

[The Ghost]

In any event it is common practice to have stipulated an independent commissioning firm for the final cert as it is without vested interests.
And then there is the emergency lighting and the separate standards for that. I presume this came into the install?

 

[Sb8389]

When you say fire alarm system do you actually mean a 2 wire fire panel and the whole shebang? Or do you mean Aico wired in system?

2 wire panel grade A to communal area and heat in each flat

 

[Sb8389]

From your replies I will just get it commissioned by the company who designed the install. What is the rough cost of CAD drawings to be made up of the design as I’m guessing this is also a requirement or is it not.

 

[Diver233]

EU would normally do that bit as part of the design

 

[westward10]

So heat detection in the lobby to the flat is connected to the system in the communal areas?

 

[Sb8389]

EU would normally do that bit as part of the design

When I got them out to design the system that’s what I thought I may get but I only got an itemised list of what’s required, so wasn’t sure if they would charge me additional charge on top

 

[Sb8389]

So heat detection in the lobby to the flat is connected to the system in the communal areas?

Yes that’s what both the council and EU have designed

 

[Darkwood]

I tend to have self contained in flats with heat detection on community in flat by door, you really need both regs and if you join BSI and pay the yearly membership most of the regs are half price, I joined and save about 800 quid when I updated just 4x regulations

 

[The Ghost]

Thinking about it I am surprised no detection in the system in the kitchen. I have the idea that now you should have a dual detector for heat and Carbon Monoxide no?

 

[Sb8389]

Thinking about it I am surprised no detection in the system in the kitchen. I have the idea that now you should have a dual detector for heat and Carbon Monoxide no?

I do find it strange aswell, but all the council stated was they want grade D Ld3 to each flat (non interlinked), that’s exactly what they put, I haven’t installed this yet and to be honest I’m not sure what to install and where to be honest, don’t want to go over the odds if they dont feels its required but on the other hand don’t want to leave myself open either, the reason I’m keen on doing least amount possible in the flats is one of the tenants is a heroin addict and is treating his kitchen like a crack den (so least amount of time spent in there the better)

 

[westward10]

On that note I would not even be crossing the threshold.

 

[Sb8389]

On that note I would not even be crossing the threshold.

A couple of pictures I took today off what I’m dealing with.

 

[westward10]

Walk away. We used to do a lot of social housing and any sign of drug use we about turned and walked out.

 

[DPG]

No amount of money would get me through that door. The risks are very high, and I would advise caution if you do decide to go ahead with it.

 

[The Ghost]

Do not enter that place again. Really! It is not just the immediate danger of needles and attendant worries you also have to consider the possibility of real trouble breaking out there from other sources and you could be in the middle of it. I know you may need the money but it is really not worth it. I know exactly what I am talking about and I can assure you you are in more danger than perhaps you realise. Sorry to be so pointed but there it is.

 

[DPG]

As Vort says, there could be all sorts of problems from other users, dealers, etc.

 

[Darkwood]

Looking at the pictures you need a full system 2 stage set up where you have communal 'bed head sounders' in most rooms from the main panel, linked alert to a response unit (auto call out to fire brigade) .. unless station is close enough to negate a auto dial... the regs do state that full interaction is needed with building control and fire services and a mutual agreed system fitted.

 

[Sb8389]

Looking at the pictures you need a full system 2 stage set up where you have communal 'bed head sounders' in most rooms from the main panel, linked alert to a response unit (auto call out to fire brigade) .. unless station is close enough to negate a auto dial... the regs do state that full interaction is needed with building control and fire services and a mutual agreed system fitted.

Really!!! Is that something that the designer should be picking up, none of this was mentioned by the council or the designer. Are you basing this on the risk assessed with the way the tenants live.

 

[Darkwood]

Really!!! Is that something that the designer should be picking up, none of this was mentioned by the council or the designer. Are you basing this on the risk assessed with the way the tenants live.

Your expected tenants can have a massive impact on design both cost and level of cover, this is all clearly set out in the standards, I just done a series of flats for ex addicts, crims etc and had to do a system that accounted for their condition, it added about 4k to the job but my arse is covered.. most people think there insurance will be a fall back but that will not help if they haven't followed the standards nor agreed with the local fire service and building control.. for the insurance firms any slight deviation from the regulations will void cover unless all parties agree on the design.

 

[Sb8389]

Your expected tenants can have a massive impact on design both cost and level of cover, this is all clearly set out in the standards, I just done a series of flats for ex addicts, crims etc and had to do a system that accounted for their condition, it added about 4k to the job but my arse is covered.. most people think there insurance will be a fall back but that will not help if they haven't followed the standards nor agreed with the local fire service and building control.. for the insurance firms any slight deviation from the regulations will void cover unless all parties agree on the design.

Oh great!!! Got me panicking now as I quoted based on the council and the designers requests of what’s required (now the system is already installed) I’m now thinking I’ve either underquoted if it requires a lot More work or I leave it and left myself open should anything happen. Would I not be covered based on paperwork from the council stating there requirements and the designer commissioning the system

 

[Darkwood]

I will add that everything on designed systems for multiple occupancy has to have a paper trail, even a confirmation from the system suppliers of the cat' level of your project and that the system they supplied meets that level, the idea you can go to the local wholesalers and order a load of gear and pay for is ignorant to the requirements... if the worst happens one needs to have a solid trial to show everything was designed and agreed and supplied correctly.

 

[Darkwood]

Oh great!!! Got me panicking now as I quoted based on the council and the designers requests of what’s required (now the system is already installed) I’m now thinking I’ve either underquoted if it requires a lot More work or I leave it and left myself open should anything happen. Would I not be covered based on paperwork from the council stating there requirements and the designer commissioning the system

If you have an independent designer and the council is giving you the required level of protection then your arse is covered, it is there design, just make sure you keep a paper trail and don't lose any letters or emails ..

 

[Darkwood]

If you get the job state clearly to the wholesalers the level of system in email that you require and keep and document all responses and confirmation, this is part of the requirements, I guess that I have needed to explain this that you do not hold the required regulations to follow, this is a dangerous position to be in if you go beyond domestic which itsekf tends to have enough guidelines on design for the average spark to follow without buying the regs .. when you move out of domestic I would definitely be buying the regs both parts 1 and 6

 

[Darkwood]

Ps given the expected tenants, if the designer hasn't put in sounders in the bedrooms, lounge etc of the flats from the communal alarm I would be raising questions but info is limited here and I may be over complicating this design based on one I recently did.

 

[Michaelwgroves]

As the council are involved I suspect it is a HMO. Even a block of self-contained flats can be classed as a HMO. If they do not comply with building regulations from 1991, they will likely be classed as HMO.
I would take a look at LACORS, it's free and very good. It is the bible for an installation such as this.
https://www.rla.org.uk/docs/LACORSFSguideApril62009.PDF
In all honesty I don't think you should be signing this off, If you are not confident enough to design, you are not competent to commission. Part of commissioning is to check the correct detectors and sounders are located in the correct positions. Are the MCP's located on the correct zone. The design engineer does not typically have the benefit of a site visit. So he won't allow 2 detectors to overcome a drop beam etc. It's your job as the commissioning engineer to spot these design flaws.

 

[westward10]

Ceiling beams are only an issue if the are 20% or above the floor to ceiling height in which case you treat them as walls.

 

[Michaelwgroves]

Ceiling beams are only an issue if the are 20% or above the floor to ceiling height in which case you treat them as walls.

Correction, it's 10%

Here's a nice pocket guide you can get from your wholesaler, I also got one from Apollo. Nice and easy reference guide.
https://www.hochikieurope.com/storage/resources/bs5839-1512041771.pdf

 

[westward10]

You are quite correct just looked in my BS5839:1 don't know where 20% came from

 

[Darkwood]

@essex

Noted you have been handing out disagreements in this thread including mine which I have no issue on, I am interested why you disagree though, I simply was stating what the regulations state in this matter and the liasons required to cover ones butt.

 

[Nigel]

@essex

Noted you have been handing out disagreements in this thread including mine which I have no issue on, I am interested why you disagree though, I simply was stating what the regulations state in this matter and the liasons required to cover ones butt.

Your advice based on photos cannot be verified. It is up for the Responsible Person to indicate the level of fire alarm required in the FRA. As no contractor is the RP they cannot ‘overule’.

The Op needs to request the FRA and no doubt this will detail a Grade A, LD2 system that has already been mentioned by the op.

This system is a domestic system so that indicates to me that this building is either a HMO or a building of over three storeys as per the Standard. However it may just be the case that the LBA just have a blanket policy of this system in all its properties.

This system requires detectors in all circulation areas that form part of an escape route (corridors and landings for example) and rooms of high risk (kitchens and communal living areas). The FRA should detail what rooms would be classed as high risk.

It is also worth noting that even though this is a Part 6 domestic system that is being specified due to the classification of a Grade A system it must be installed to the same specification as a Part 1 system. Standard FP should be ok but it could be the FRA requests enhanced cable to be installed.

Sounders in every bedroom is a certainty to meet db levels and there should be a minimum of two sounder circuits.

An auto-dialling system is certainly not required in this instance and is not a requirement of Grade A LP2 systems.

To answer the op, commissioning of the fire alarm will involve looking at the FRA, looking at the design and ensuring the installation reflects this. Then ensuring the fire alarm system operates as it should. In your case I would consider it prudent to engage the sub-contractor to do the commissioning so you can be certain theninstallation is acceptable.

 

[Darkwood]

Your advice based on photos cannot be verified. It is up for the Responsible Person to indicate the level of fire alarm required in the FRA. As no contractor is the RP they cannot ‘overule’.

The Op needs to request the FRA and no doubt this will detail a Grade A, LD2 system that has already been mentioned by the op.

This system is a domestic system so that indicates to me that this building is either a HMO or a building of over three storeys as per the Standard. However it may just be the case that the LBA just have a blanket policy of this system in all its properties.

This system requires detectors in all circulation areas that form part of an escape route (corridors and landings for example) and rooms of high risk (kitchens and communal living areas). The FRA should detail what rooms would be classed as high risk.

It is also worth noting that even though this is a Part 6 domestic system that is being specified due to the classification of a Grade A system it must be installed to the same specification as a Part 1 system. Standard FP should be ok but it could be the FRA requests enhanced cable to be installed.

Sounders in every bedroom is a certainty to meet db levels and there should be a minimum of two sounder circuits.

An auto-dialling system is certainly not required in this instance and is not a requirement of Grade A LP2 systems.

To answer the op, commissioning of the fire alarm will involve looking at the FRA, looking at the design and ensuring the installation reflects this. Then ensuring the fire alarm system operates as it should. In your case I would consider it prudent to engage the sub-contractor to do the commissioning so you can be certain theninstallation is acceptable.

The photos to me are glaringly obvious that there is drug abuse active in these flats, that is all I need to take from the photo unless you disagree with that evaluation?

Some of the points you raised were reflected in my later posts, the OP posted a picture of the type of tenant we may expect could be in these premises, now give the council recommendation was LD3 I do not believe this reflected the nature of the tenants unless there was info' that hasn't been disclosed here. In reflection of the possibility or probability that tenants are drug users etc then the system installed should reflect the added issues that this comes with.

I cannot vouch for his local building control I'll give you that nor can I know how they gauge their requirements but I can give an informed opinion on recent systems I have installed in HMO's where this is a typical type of tenant and I have fitted a system I suggested which reflected the higher risks associated with the tenants behaviour, since fitting this system 6yrs ago there has been 2 fire events caused by tenants on drugs which were dealt with fast and efficiently with no loss of life and just minor property damage, it was the fact the system was a mix of LD1 overlapping a grade D system to the flats that the tenants got out in the effected flat, an LD3 may have seen loss of life to those in the effected flats had they not had there own independent system installed.

PS - cheers for expanding on your disagreement, it is nice to know other members opinions be they negative or positive, this is how we learn, I am a stickler when it comes to members hitting disagree then posting nothing unless it is clearly obvious exactly what you are disagreeing with, in this case I needed more info so hope you understand me calling you out on it.