Customer won't pay to correct dangerous wiring

[Dave 85]

This is the way I look at it. My job is to install electrical stuff, safely and within regs etc or test stuff and give the client a report, if thats what they're paying for.

I am not the electrical police. If the government want to give me a salary for that, well, I'll consider it, but they dont. If I see someone smoking a smoke, I dont go and take it off them and confiscate their money to stop them buying more just because its gonna kill them.

If someone wants to have a dangerous house and wont pay to have it fixed, who am I to give a ----? Its Evolution, survival of the fittest (least stupid), its what got us where we are today. The government may be trying to reverse it, but not me.

 

[overskilled]

Dave - 3 words, Duty of care, the point is Gas and Electricity can be equally deadly (some would say electricity is more deadly as you can smell gas most of the time.) Therefore it makes no sense that gas fitters can have the gas supply shut off yet electricians cannot and many electricians shy away from the topic, either for your reasons or for fear of upsetting householders. Which is a bit like one of my bosses who encouraged law breaking among staff with the following statement "You have to balance obeying the rules with keeping the customers happy, don't stick to them too closely or the customers will get upset" - Cowboy attitude if I ever heard it and one of many reasons why I no longer work there.

 

[Des 56]

Gas installations have the potential to destroy lives and properties of the local area,carbon monoxide poisoning is a silent killer and can kill innocent people
I would expect that these 2 problems kill more people than the 12 or so per year that electrical installations account for

You can protect your electrical installation,but you can do nothing about next doors gas

I think people should balance responsibility of the individual with interference and choice by the authorities

Its fine to make someone aware of a problem that could affect them.its another to interfere to the point that you are the custodian of their own responsibilities

Interference by Government in this industry has been amateur and a shambles up till now and is better left alone

If they did try and enforce some sort of testing regime that was compulsory,do you think they are firstly justified in interfering and secondly what sort of mayhem and criminal acts will they be allowing for the unscrupulous to legally enact

 

[Astro800]

I have had a shock from a next door neighbours installation. 27volts through beading of my windowsill, while I was in the bath.

 

[Dave 85]

Gas installations have the potential to destroy lives and properties of the local area,carbon monoxide poisoning is a silent killer and can kill innocent people
I would expect that these 2 problems kill more people than the 12 or so per year that electrical installations account for

You can protect your electrical installation,but you can do nothing about next doors gas

I think people should balance responsibility of the individual with interference and choice by the authorities

Its fine to make someone aware of a problem that could affect them.its another to interfere to the point that you are the custodian of their own responsibilities

Interference by Government in this industry has been amateur and a shambles up till now and is better left alone

If they did try and enforce some sort of testing regime that was compulsory,do you think they are firstly justified in interfering and secondly what sort of mayhem and criminal acts will they be allowing for the unscrupulous to legally enact

This is a good point. According to research I've read, about 4000 people die from accidents in the home each year, 3000 in car accidents each year and somewhere between 5 and 15 people are killed by fire or shock as a result of fixed wiring in the home (and this includes the DIYers who are playing around with it). This is about 1 in every 400 of all fatal accidents in the home. My point is, people talking about houses burning down instantly from incorrect cable sizing and children being killed are pretty much being drama queens.
YES electricity is dangerous
NO domestic elecrical supplies are not as potentially dangerous as a lot of electricians like to pretend they are-especially modern ones with RCD and MCB protection (as opposed to a 3036 with a bit of 4mm as the fuse)

 

[jase]

Just my 2p, feel free to disagree
See situations like this really needs something like an electrical version of gassafe brought in (with better oversight, don't know how good gassafe is, but have seen some real cowboys who were corgi registered in the past) or a requirement for regular inspections from someone who doesn't do the remedial work to assure impartiality (in theory at least)
Our system is a mess, no way to force it to be remedied, too many willing to look the other way as "we've done it that way for years" or "the customer doesn't want to pay for it to be done right" "the customer wants it done this way, who am I to argue?"
I'd be happy with a system of required inspections say backed by the insurance industry - "no electrical safety cert, no policy pay out" which would persuade many to make sure it was done. The issue is making sure shonky certs don't get issued, which could be a real sticking point.
What do others think?

wouldnt work in a million years, electricians given the right to condemm an installation, even get it isolated until it is put "right" how many duff sparks out there would be issuing these at the merest hint of something not complying to current regs even though it might be perfectly safe? how many times on this forum has the question popped up wether an old 3036 needs a new fuseboard or even a complete re-wire, the other day i did some work at a school and they had just had their 5 year PIR back, loads of code 2's some of them for real stupid stuff like screw missing on fuseboard cover!!! i mean, code 3 or 4 but not a bloody 2!!!
and with the new codings even less choice, if it aint code 3 its unsatisfactory, As it stands a dangerous condition notice can be issued, as proof you have made the situation aware, if sparks were given the power to do anymore than i reckon people really would feel bullied into having work done that may or may not be dangerous,thus no-one will want to call a proper spark and that would open the door even further for the cowboys to come in and do it cheap,at least this way the responsibility lies with them

 

[jase]

What i would have done is told him what is required to install his cooker circuit and then if I found something else which needed attention I would have made a note on the neccesary paperwork and let the customer decide from there.If I found something that was very unsafe then I would remove the fuse to that circuit and fill out the neccesary paperwork.If then the customer puts that fuse back in then thats his look out.

spot on, isnt that what the box on the EIC, notes on existing installation, for????

 

[overskilled]

wouldnt work in a million years, electricians given the right to condemm an installation, even get it isolated until it is put "right" how many duff sparks out there would be issuing these at the merest hint of something not complying to current regs even though it might be perfectly safe? how many times on this forum has the question popped up wether an old 3036 needs a new fuseboard or even a complete re-wire, the other day i did some work at a school and they had just had their 5 year PIR back, loads of code 2's some of them for real stupid stuff like screw missing on fuseboard cover!!! i mean, code 3 or 4 but not a bloody 2!!!
and with the new codings even less choice, if it aint code 3 its unsatisfactory, As it stands a dangerous condition notice can be issued, as proof you have made the situation aware, if sparks were given the power to do anymore than i reckon people really would feel bullied into having work done that may or may not be dangerous,thus no-one will want to call a proper spark and that would open the door even further for the cowboys to come in and do it cheap,at least this way the responsibility lies with them

The solution then is to root out the duff sparks from the industry, for example those (without dyslexia etc) who fail an open book test with a score of 30% shouldnt be working or working without proper supervision.
Its a difficult issue, but I still feel something needs done about it.
Whether its one death or 100, its still too many and thats the bottom line.