Green deal info

[sedgy34]

Installer - Department of Energy and Climate Change

At last!!! some proper info on the green deal

 

[SRE]

Is this going to be on top of REAL & MCS? Surely they can't be inventing even more paperwork?????

 

[Somecamel]

It says if you already have MCS your exempt from having to have the standard? So all MCS companies can be Green deal installers?

 

[TedM]

You'll only be able to operate as a Green Deal Installer for the same tech that you are MCS certified for. You won't suddenly be able to install loft insulation if you are a PV or heat pump installer.

 

[sedgy34]

This is we're you need to get a few firms together to offer the services

 

[WRDEnergy]

I am right in saying this is a good thing ? I was under the impression that Solar PV wasnt going to be part of the Greendeal this says that it is.... we all know that over 25years you will make your money back from the cost of installation... will we still have the feed in tariff for customers who want to pay outright ? the green deal to me seems to be a much better rent a roof option to the custmer as i guess once they have paid back the cost of installation they own the system.

Please let me know if i have picked up the wrong end of the stick.

 

[TedM]

PV has been an approved technology under the Green Deal for a while. But how the Golden Rule applies to it or how FiTs payments might be affected has not been explained.

 

[WRDEnergy]

Thanks Ted are you of the opinion that its going to be a good thing for PV ?

 

[finewine]

Hi Guys,

Do you know how this will affect my industry? I am a Hetas engineer and run a Wood burning stove shop. As I read it, only biomass boiler systems will be covered which at present we do not get involved in. Ofcourse we may need to diversify our business model to incorporate other products which are covered by the Green deal. Also, having read a guide on the Green Deal I am still unsure as to how we as a business will get paid for the work? We could only finance such work for a couple of months at most before being paid.

 

[SRE]

PV has been an approved technology under the Green Deal for a while. But how the Golden Rule applies to it or how FiTs payments might be affected has not been explained.

There was a Q & A session with DECC Green Deal team in December which clearly said that if pv made up part of the green deal package then you wouldn't qualify to get feed in tariff, but there's been no clarification since then and given how frequently they change their mind and how the prices for pv have changed in the last 6 months it could be a whole different ball game by the time Green Deal is introduced.

If grid parity is achieved in the next couple of years and Green Deal ever does get off the ground in a sensible way then pv could be a key player and the door could be openend to loads more customers, but it's a long time to wait and who knows what will happen.

As Ted says we're 5 months from launch with no clarity about anything related to Green Deal, but with the Fits fiasco should we be surprised!!

Ed Davey is on the Politics Show today at 12 if you can bear to watch it!

 

[Gavin A]

PV has been an approved technology under the Green Deal for a while. But how the Golden Rule applies to it or how FiTs payments might be affected has not been explained.

I'm under the impression that it had to pay for itself under the golden rule excluding FIT payments - ie from on site savings alone, BUT that it may be acceptable to work it into a package of measures that combine to meet the golden rule OR the customer can top the green deal money up proportionally so that the bit that could meet the green deal golden rule was funded through green deal.

I can't see it doing much for PV other than maybe supplying the finance for energy saving measures needed to bring a house up to band D to qualify for the higher FIT rates tbh.

 

[Gavin A]

There was a Q & A session with DECC Green Deal team in December which clearly said that if pv made up part of the green deal package then you wouldn't qualify to get feed in tariff, but there's been no clarification since then and given how frequently they change their mind and how the prices for pv have changed in the last 6 months it could be a whole different ball game by the time Green Deal is introduced.

If grid parity is achieved in the next couple of years and Green Deal ever does get off the ground in a sensible way then pv could be a key player and the door could be openend to loads more customers, but it's a long time to wait and who knows what will happen.

As Ted says we're 5 months from launch with no clarity about anything related to Green Deal, but with the Fits fiasco should we be surprised!!

Ed Davey is on the Politics Show today at 12 if you can bear to watch it!

I don't see why. Green deal is a commercial loan made at commercial rates, it's got precisely zero public funded / state aid element to it, so I'd think decc were talking out of their backsides as per usual.

 

[TedM]

That's not quite right. DECC have said they would add £200 million to the pot to kick start GD by making deals sweeter (subsidised finance % maybe) for early adopters.

There is also the £1.3 billion a year for ECO that will be funded via energy bills.

 

[Gavin A]

That's not quite right. DECC have said they would add £200 million to the pot to kick start GD by making deals sweeter (subsidised finance % maybe) for early adopters.

There is also the £1.3 billion a year for ECO that will be funded via energy bills.

the loan's still being made at commercial rates, so shouldn't class as state aid.

I'd think that £200million will be mostly swallowed up in start up costs anyway, and precious little will ever find it's way to the consumer.

Obviously if it were ECO funded then that would be different, but I don't see ECO ever funding PV, though it may well end up funding associated improvements to get a house to band D.

 

[TedM]

Existing schemes (CERT/CESP) are allowed to fund PV - not that I've ever actually heard of one happening.

I think all the admin costs of Green Deal (and they will be significant) are separately funded by DECC/taxpayer. DECC have had a tender out for the running of the scheme, and the winner is due to be announced next month.

 

[sedgy34]

I bet BG will get it

 

[TedM]

BG will be a GD Provider so they would have trouble being the Administrator as well.

More likely Gemserv, I think.

 

[Gavin A]

More likely Gemserv, I think.

please let this not be true.

obviously it will be what happens.

 

[SRE]

Could be worse it could be REAL!

 

[Gavin A]

I think this sort of level of incompetence must be a London thing. I reckon it's maybe because it's all just a jobs merry go round between all the organisations, so nobody would want to rock the boat in case they end up needing work from one of the others at a later point.

eta plus they know they'll end up at some official function, or meeting with the person / organisation they'd cut the work from and that'd be a bit socially awkward.

 

[TedM]

Very true. One prime example is Virginia Graham, CEO of REAL, who used to work at OFGEM. Revolving doors.

 

[Eco Deal]

PV has been an approved technology under the Green Deal for a while. But how the Golden Rule applies to it or how FiTs payments might be affected has not been explained.

forget pv under the golden rule it just wont make it work

 

[SRE]

It won't meet it now but in a few years when grid parity is achieved it will be eligible under Green Deal or whatever the latest political version of it is.

 

[Eco Deal]

agreed SRE

 

[moggy1968]

would green deal offer an affordable way into PV for those whose houses don't (and possibly never will) meet the epc requirements?

 

[sedgy34]

would green deal offer an affordable way into PV for those whose houses don't (and possibly never will) meet the epc requirements?

the green deal is making it more affordable for EVERYONE to get there houses a band D and more efficient including pv

 

[SRE]

I think the jury's out until we have more details. If it costs 10k to get solid wall insulation on a detached house with oil heating to get it to a D rating then to come in under Green Deal as I understand it the repayments would have to be less than or equal to the savings achieved through the solid wall insulation and repayable within 20?? years. So £300 a year savings (and that's generous) x 20 years = 6k and that's without paying the 6 -7% interest that's being suggested.

Maybe my figures are wrong, maybe I haven't understood it but why would I tie in 10k ish of work to my fuel bills when any reduction ends up paying for the saving. Loft and cavity are much better examples but if you can't give it away free (and in some cases people on benefit are being paid to have it installed) then why would you pay for it. It's beyond me at the minute!

 

[Earthstore]

I have to agree, it is all beyond me also, and quite frankly I am tired of it all.
But on a lighter note, I emailed OFGEM over a month ago complaining about how complex the EPC rules are and also they are unclear, making a point about all the red tape,and asked for them to answer my questions and not send me to yet another PDF file, and guess what.....
I was sent a link to an 88 page document, says it all really.

 

[moggy1968]

yep, can't say I can see how it will work either. It's a dead duck as far as I can see. Might help with a bit of loft insulation but thats about it!
No one seems to have considered the efect on the houses electrical system of enclosing all that cable in insulation it was never designed for either.

 

[Mr Peacock]

I have already seen a Green deal format EPC, which lists the measures which could be implemented under the greendeal. it listed the improvement measures for the property as Solar Thermal and Solar PV. Which was a supprise. The Greendeal in my opinion will push the insulation and heating / hot water technologies first. Its pointless fitting a new band A condensing boiler, heatpump, or anything else for that matter if the insulation standard isnt up to scratch. For properties where the insulation has already been done, and a condensing boiler or heat pump fitted, then the room for improvement then looks at SOlar thermal, PV etc.

 

[SRE]

I have one in front of me which suggests solar thermal but says it can't be fully financed under the Green Deal and you may need to contribute some payment up front. Low energy lighting doesn't even have the amber tick so it's not eligible at all.

 

[TedM]

DECC haven't clarified the position on low energy lighting in domestic properties. The concern is that people would just walk away with LED bulbs when they move if these have been financed via GD. It's difficult to see how this could be resolved simply.

 

[sedgy34]

I can't see led lamps being involved in the scheme as alot of misuse will happen

 

[MickF]

Just spent 6 hours with various people involved at the sharp end on the Greendeal, including one GDP ..

Maybe i'm a cynic..

A number things came out of it
1) The average customer who takes up the green deal will do so as they have no other way of funding the measures. i.e. they are D, E on the social scale, and also are the same people that would already have gone for the 'free solar'
2) The people that will make money out of this are the finance providers - they (the GDP's) will do the math on the returns, and so set the price of the work, you can gaurantee that what won't be trimmed is the cost of the finance. - There are NO controls on the interest rate to be charged.
3) For installers, it will simple be a race to the bottom on costs/pricing.
4) If as an installer you take a proposal to a GDP, they have no obilgation to give it back to you to do the work - they will more than likely give it to the lowest cost provider.
5) Entry points into the green deal are most likely to be either the current crop of telesales offering 'free' insulation, or a 'distress' purchase: Mrs Bloggings boiler breaks down, they go in offer a replacement bolier (condensing of course) for 'FREE' on the green deal, and then immediately upsell on loft insulation, cavity wall insulation, double galzing etc etc. - all for 'FREE'.- gotcha Mrs Bloggins
6) There will only be 50 green deal approved project per week between ovtober and december, of which 20 per week have been allocated to Kingfisher aka B&Q
7) Anything that meets 'the golden rule' is effectively in, in some cases that may mean it needs topping up from the ECO funding in order for it to meet the Golden Rule, external wall insulation being a case in point.
8) The finance take a second charge on the property - now try to sell it !!!
8) And here's the big one ... If you have solar Pv or thermal (or any other renewable technolgy) installed under the green deal (even though it is a commercial finance scheme) you wil NOT be eligible for FIT or RHI .......

Bottom line, for any professional independant installer, forget the Green Deal, the likes of the Mark Group, Carillion, British Gas etc will love it.

 

[MickF]

p.s.
And of course since the Solar PV and Solar Thermal isn't eleigible for FIT / RHI, you won't need to be MCS registered to isntall it! You just need to comply with the 'lower' generic PAS 2030

Dr Scott Steedman, Director (Designate) of Standards at BSI said:

“BSI’s Green Deal Installation Standard, PAS 2030 not only provides installers with the ability to demonstrate their competence but is designed to provide assurance for the public that the quality of work will be at the appropriate level. We were delighted to have worked with DECC in delivering the first Green Deal standard which will help encourage adoption of the scheme and the best possible result for the UK with this energy efficiency initiative.”

 

[moggy1968]

A Government initiative that favours the Big companies rather than SMSEs, surely not,I don't believe it!!

 

[Earthstore]

Well what a can of worms this is then.
As these customers will in essence be buying systems on credit, they will be covered by the consumer credit act, oh, I see some court cases on the horizon...

 

[MickF]

Spot on, all GDP's have to be CCA compliant..

The only 'hope' is with the likes of the Grafton Group (they are already one of the approved GDP's) they trade under the Buildbase, Plumbase, Jackson and Selco brands, and they want to shift their materials.

However, you are up against the big boys, and I can now see the sharks at the checkout of B&Q telling people not to pay for that roll of insulation they've just picked up as if they let a man come round they can have it for 'free'....

 

[MickF]

Theoritically a Housing Association could also become a GDP ... (it's open to anyone that is prepared to be 'compliant') and get their tenant to pay for the improvements.

or - here's one fro SRE A property developer aka landlord could get all the improvements to bring the building up to the standards for 'free' and get it paid for by the tenants ion their bill ......

 

[SRE]

Theoritically a Housing Association could also become a GDP ... (it's open to anyone that is prepared to be 'compliant') and get their tenant to pay for the improvements.

or - here's one fro SRE A property developer aka landlord could get all the improvements to bring the building up to the standards for 'free' and get it paid for by the tenants ion their bill ......

Yea, ironically I benefit from a much improved house while my tenant pays for it. I've got 3 houses with solid walls and the thought has crossed my mind - not sure if my morals will let me do it though!

Here's Somerset West Home Energy a pre Eco/Green Deal pilot run by a reputable energy agency in Bristol. It's going to be interesting to see how they get on with their pilot.