- Jul 23, 2025
- 1
- 0
- 1
- If you're a qualified, trainee, or retired electrician - Which country is it that your work will be / is / was aimed at?
- United Kingdom
- What type of forum member are you?
- Other
- If other, please explain
- Trustee responsible for the safety of tenants in rented accommodation
Please also see attached image as this is the key to the text below.
This is long winded in explanation but pessary for full context.
Thank you for looking.
Mike
The site location is a hilltop, very exposed, wet and cold, no tree cover, 360 degrees strong winds prevail for much of the year. (heating) (All EPC’s lower than E)
The full facts of this aspect of our scenario.
The plan attached shows a rural location with a mains NGED/DNO supply.
Three phase is circa 1/2 mile from the site.
The NGED/DNO provided a supply to P1 and P2 pre 1980 with NGED/DNO Meters.
Circa 1980 the property owner/landlord added No 1 to his property portfolio and we believe the NGED/DNO at that time, added a third metered supply, located externally at P2 - This meter is at least 40 meters from the NGED POLE and is currently a GE SGM1312 Smart meter.
We therefore obviously assume that in 1980 the DNO were notified of the new connection to 1 as being a dwelling. (we are not certain yet)
In 1980 we assume that each dwelling that shares the 120amp NGED/DNO service had at that time a maximum capacity of 40 amps under simultaneous maximum load, plenty for 1980.
The supply from the “NGED POLE” to P1, P2 and the “Spare NGED Meter” is a single phase, 120 amp supply.
This supply is connected to a 100amp fuse/cutoff head (Fuse 100 Amp)
It then connects to the GE SGM1312 Smart meter (Smart Meter GESGM)
and finally to a very old style, white box with a red switch (IS) for isolating the downstream supply (photos available).
There is apparently no substantive earthing arrangement at P2
From the white isolation switch box (IS) there is an armoured cable connected, which has a maximum diameter of 30mm, possibly less. This cabe is at least 45/50 years old.
We understand that the conductor size in the armoured cannot be greater than 70mm2 - we do not know whether it is aluminium or copper or whether it has an earthing conductor.
Along its 375 metres run at approximately 175 metres, there is a “Well Water Pump” (WP) which is rated 1.5 - 2Kw. We believe is underrated for the task.
We believe there is a junction box of some sort at WP
This pump runs almost 24/7.
The pump lifts water from the well, with an estimated depth of 30m+.
The pump has an output water pipe connected which has a maximum bore of 25-30mm.
The water is pumped over 600 meters to a reservoir - slightly upward gradient for 150 meters, flat 100 metres and then largely downhill.
This water supply feeds 35+ dwellings plus on the larger private estate.
The 375 metre cable then goes on a further 200 metres to 1 (1) which was the first agricultural building of five to be converted to living accommodation - It is single storey, terraced and has two bedrooms - LPG heating boiler and now has an 8Kw power shower.
The cable terminates at 1 - there is NO Cutoff Head - NO Fuse - No Isolation switch.
The termination point/junction box for all other dwellings later added is inside 1.
There is apparently no substantive earthing arrangement at 1.
From 1980 to 2014/15, dwelling 2 (1 Bedroom, single storey, terraced) - 3 (2 Bedroom, single storey, detached) - 4 (1 Bedroom, single storey, terraced ) - and 5 (2 Bedroom, single storey, terraced) were added to the single NGED/DNO supply.
NONE of the dwellings have Cutoff Heads - Mains type Fuses - Or isolation switches.
When maintenance occurs or there is a fault, ALL five properties can only be isolated at the 375 metre cable origin, at the IS on the plan.
All five dwellings have; Prepayment electricity meters
Ampy Automation
Model: “Digicard”
Serial Number: D04G61000
Manufacture Date: 2004
They do not provide transparent billing information - therefore not lawful according to Ofgem.
None of the tenants have ever been able to access favourable utility tariffs, the landlord refused access and the necessary upgrades for tariff access meters.
All properties constantly experience flickering and dim lights, have had fridges and freezers heat up to the point where the contents have almost cooked and many more device and equipment failures.
In 2020 at 5, an EV (7Kw) wall charger installation was attempted. The engineer refused connection, citing “Dangerous Electrical Infrastructure” - cable supply dangerously inadequate, no lawful isolation means, no proper fusing and on.
However, he felt sorry for the tenants and went on to install and connect the charger but severely limited it to 1.5 - 2Kw output capacity coupled with a voltage sensing device to cut the charger off if voltages fell outside of safe parameters.
The EV has only on rare occasions since, completed a charge, constantly “faulting” (unsurprising)
No EICR’s
By the latest, April 2021 the landlord was supposed to supply all dwellings with EICR certificates but never has, even today there are no EICR certificates (I wonder why).
Circa 2021 - 22, a qualified electrical engineer was engaged by the landlord to asses the dwellings for EIRC’s - We assume he must have alerted the landlord of the dangers and unsuitability for EICR’s.
Abuse of ECO4
In March 2025 an ECO4 installer arrived at the dwellings to install an 8.6Kw ASHP, boiler, a 4.5Kw solar array and batteries at 3.
We are fully aware that the installation(s) on a regulatory level is/are entirely illegal, there were absolutely no pre installation site inspections, therefore no specifications ever provided. Every tenant was entirely in the dark and unaware of what was unfolding.
Their names had however been used to obtain ECO4 support grants.
We know that for many reasons, without a NGED/DNO supply with smart metering, in this location, that the ECO4 measures would not under any circumstances be financially viable for low income families, particularly as none of the dwellings have access to utility provider low tariffs.
Having fitted an 8.6Kw ASHP to 3 with a boiler and 4.5Kw solar, NO BATTERIES the boiler was immediately “Faulting”.
The Tenant from 5 (failed EV charger installation) alerted the installers to the “Dangerous and illegal supply infrastructure) We know of course that this should have been discovered in the very early phases of inspection and discovery and installation should never have been tried.
The Installer should have been fully aware of the absence of EICR certificates and the infrastructure BEFORE arriving on site.
The attempt of installations is entirely on his back and now due the lawful repercussions.
The landlord had clearly been engaged with the ECO4 installer in the pre-installation process, and had obviously lied to the installer about many aspects of site suitability. No excuse, but the ECO4 installer had been a little blindsided with the promise of at least seven full installs.
Shockingly and surprisingly the installers left the ASHP connected at 3 and under the clear direction of the landlord, the ECO4 boss went onto to install an 8.6Kw ASHP and boiler with a 4.5Kw solar array, NO Batteries at 5 and then a 5.6Kw ASHP and boiler with a 5.5Kw solar array, NO Batteries at 4.
The tenant of 5 was extremely angry at the the landlord for forcing the installation and the ECO4 installers for ignoring his warnings. He did however insist that the LPG boiler remained in place and was left functioning. The boiler installation engineer commissioned in part the ASHP, voltage prevented it from fully functioning and then fully disconnected it.
ASHP’s 3 and 4 remain connected.
Pre Paid Meter issue.
The tenant of 5 then discovered another issue with the solar energy generation.
The Prepayment electricity meters - Ampy Automation were not capable of distinguishing energy flow direction.
The digital card meter was charging for energy consumed AND energy generated.
Every KW of solar energy unused in the dwelling 5 was passing back through the meter to the wider development of dwellings, feeding them with the “Free Energy”
This movement of energy was not distinguished for what it was and was depleting the credit on the meter, so not only was the tenant paying for grid energy but was also paying for “Free” unused energy.
To make matters worse, the free energy that was now paid for by the tenant at 5 was also to a degree passing through the meters of 1 - 4 and being paid for again as their credit was being consumed regardless of the source.
The landlord was immediately profiting from this major flaw, he, regardless of the source of energy, is paid for every KW that passes through his meters, possibly 10Kw and hour , £3.00 per hour at his rates set in the meters. He was immediately notified. Noting happened.
When discovering this the tenant at 5 isolated the solar array. Voltage spikes of 264 volts during the day prevented the EV from charging anyway so there was no overall benefit of connecting without intensely micromanaging solar control or sufficient batteries. None installed.
April 2025 on.
From late afternoon there are now consistent voltage lows of 208 volts, this is summertime.
In this live scenario the NGED have had ELEVEN notifiable changes/demands added to their already shared supply of 120 amps, to one single NGED meter.
The landlord has zero interest in properly upgrading the service to all dwellings to three phase.
We are off course aware that the ECO4 installations under these circumstances have been carried out with significant deception by both the installer and the landlord.
The installer has claimed the grant support money, wrongly of course.
The landlord benefits in material cost, wrongly of course for a whole host of reasons.
Our main interest in placing this on the forum and explaining the scenario at this time is to obtain comments and suggestions from:
current or ex DNO staff
to possibly find a sector professional that would be prepared to be a professional witness
and finally,
Is it reasonable to imagine or expect an electrical engineer, once seeing the scenario above, to have alerted the DNO or any other regulatory authorities, considering the dangers at each stage of violation of the DNO contract and of course health and safety and the foreseeable harm to tenants
Thanking you all in advance of your comments
This is long winded in explanation but pessary for full context.
Thank you for looking.
Mike
The site location is a hilltop, very exposed, wet and cold, no tree cover, 360 degrees strong winds prevail for much of the year. (heating) (All EPC’s lower than E)
The full facts of this aspect of our scenario.
The plan attached shows a rural location with a mains NGED/DNO supply.
Three phase is circa 1/2 mile from the site.
The NGED/DNO provided a supply to P1 and P2 pre 1980 with NGED/DNO Meters.
Circa 1980 the property owner/landlord added No 1 to his property portfolio and we believe the NGED/DNO at that time, added a third metered supply, located externally at P2 - This meter is at least 40 meters from the NGED POLE and is currently a GE SGM1312 Smart meter.
We therefore obviously assume that in 1980 the DNO were notified of the new connection to 1 as being a dwelling. (we are not certain yet)
In 1980 we assume that each dwelling that shares the 120amp NGED/DNO service had at that time a maximum capacity of 40 amps under simultaneous maximum load, plenty for 1980.
The supply from the “NGED POLE” to P1, P2 and the “Spare NGED Meter” is a single phase, 120 amp supply.
This supply is connected to a 100amp fuse/cutoff head (Fuse 100 Amp)
It then connects to the GE SGM1312 Smart meter (Smart Meter GESGM)
and finally to a very old style, white box with a red switch (IS) for isolating the downstream supply (photos available).
There is apparently no substantive earthing arrangement at P2
From the white isolation switch box (IS) there is an armoured cable connected, which has a maximum diameter of 30mm, possibly less. This cabe is at least 45/50 years old.
We understand that the conductor size in the armoured cannot be greater than 70mm2 - we do not know whether it is aluminium or copper or whether it has an earthing conductor.
Along its 375 metres run at approximately 175 metres, there is a “Well Water Pump” (WP) which is rated 1.5 - 2Kw. We believe is underrated for the task.
We believe there is a junction box of some sort at WP
This pump runs almost 24/7.
The pump lifts water from the well, with an estimated depth of 30m+.
The pump has an output water pipe connected which has a maximum bore of 25-30mm.
The water is pumped over 600 meters to a reservoir - slightly upward gradient for 150 meters, flat 100 metres and then largely downhill.
This water supply feeds 35+ dwellings plus on the larger private estate.
The 375 metre cable then goes on a further 200 metres to 1 (1) which was the first agricultural building of five to be converted to living accommodation - It is single storey, terraced and has two bedrooms - LPG heating boiler and now has an 8Kw power shower.
The cable terminates at 1 - there is NO Cutoff Head - NO Fuse - No Isolation switch.
The termination point/junction box for all other dwellings later added is inside 1.
There is apparently no substantive earthing arrangement at 1.
From 1980 to 2014/15, dwelling 2 (1 Bedroom, single storey, terraced) - 3 (2 Bedroom, single storey, detached) - 4 (1 Bedroom, single storey, terraced ) - and 5 (2 Bedroom, single storey, terraced) were added to the single NGED/DNO supply.
NONE of the dwellings have Cutoff Heads - Mains type Fuses - Or isolation switches.
When maintenance occurs or there is a fault, ALL five properties can only be isolated at the 375 metre cable origin, at the IS on the plan.
All five dwellings have; Prepayment electricity meters
Ampy Automation
Model: “Digicard”
Serial Number: D04G61000
Manufacture Date: 2004
They do not provide transparent billing information - therefore not lawful according to Ofgem.
None of the tenants have ever been able to access favourable utility tariffs, the landlord refused access and the necessary upgrades for tariff access meters.
All properties constantly experience flickering and dim lights, have had fridges and freezers heat up to the point where the contents have almost cooked and many more device and equipment failures.
In 2020 at 5, an EV (7Kw) wall charger installation was attempted. The engineer refused connection, citing “Dangerous Electrical Infrastructure” - cable supply dangerously inadequate, no lawful isolation means, no proper fusing and on.
However, he felt sorry for the tenants and went on to install and connect the charger but severely limited it to 1.5 - 2Kw output capacity coupled with a voltage sensing device to cut the charger off if voltages fell outside of safe parameters.
The EV has only on rare occasions since, completed a charge, constantly “faulting” (unsurprising)
No EICR’s
By the latest, April 2021 the landlord was supposed to supply all dwellings with EICR certificates but never has, even today there are no EICR certificates (I wonder why).
Circa 2021 - 22, a qualified electrical engineer was engaged by the landlord to asses the dwellings for EIRC’s - We assume he must have alerted the landlord of the dangers and unsuitability for EICR’s.
Abuse of ECO4
In March 2025 an ECO4 installer arrived at the dwellings to install an 8.6Kw ASHP, boiler, a 4.5Kw solar array and batteries at 3.
We are fully aware that the installation(s) on a regulatory level is/are entirely illegal, there were absolutely no pre installation site inspections, therefore no specifications ever provided. Every tenant was entirely in the dark and unaware of what was unfolding.
Their names had however been used to obtain ECO4 support grants.
We know that for many reasons, without a NGED/DNO supply with smart metering, in this location, that the ECO4 measures would not under any circumstances be financially viable for low income families, particularly as none of the dwellings have access to utility provider low tariffs.
Having fitted an 8.6Kw ASHP to 3 with a boiler and 4.5Kw solar, NO BATTERIES the boiler was immediately “Faulting”.
The Tenant from 5 (failed EV charger installation) alerted the installers to the “Dangerous and illegal supply infrastructure) We know of course that this should have been discovered in the very early phases of inspection and discovery and installation should never have been tried.
The Installer should have been fully aware of the absence of EICR certificates and the infrastructure BEFORE arriving on site.
The attempt of installations is entirely on his back and now due the lawful repercussions.
The landlord had clearly been engaged with the ECO4 installer in the pre-installation process, and had obviously lied to the installer about many aspects of site suitability. No excuse, but the ECO4 installer had been a little blindsided with the promise of at least seven full installs.
Shockingly and surprisingly the installers left the ASHP connected at 3 and under the clear direction of the landlord, the ECO4 boss went onto to install an 8.6Kw ASHP and boiler with a 4.5Kw solar array, NO Batteries at 5 and then a 5.6Kw ASHP and boiler with a 5.5Kw solar array, NO Batteries at 4.
The tenant of 5 was extremely angry at the the landlord for forcing the installation and the ECO4 installers for ignoring his warnings. He did however insist that the LPG boiler remained in place and was left functioning. The boiler installation engineer commissioned in part the ASHP, voltage prevented it from fully functioning and then fully disconnected it.
ASHP’s 3 and 4 remain connected.
Pre Paid Meter issue.
The tenant of 5 then discovered another issue with the solar energy generation.
The Prepayment electricity meters - Ampy Automation were not capable of distinguishing energy flow direction.
The digital card meter was charging for energy consumed AND energy generated.
Every KW of solar energy unused in the dwelling 5 was passing back through the meter to the wider development of dwellings, feeding them with the “Free Energy”
This movement of energy was not distinguished for what it was and was depleting the credit on the meter, so not only was the tenant paying for grid energy but was also paying for “Free” unused energy.
To make matters worse, the free energy that was now paid for by the tenant at 5 was also to a degree passing through the meters of 1 - 4 and being paid for again as their credit was being consumed regardless of the source.
The landlord was immediately profiting from this major flaw, he, regardless of the source of energy, is paid for every KW that passes through his meters, possibly 10Kw and hour , £3.00 per hour at his rates set in the meters. He was immediately notified. Noting happened.
When discovering this the tenant at 5 isolated the solar array. Voltage spikes of 264 volts during the day prevented the EV from charging anyway so there was no overall benefit of connecting without intensely micromanaging solar control or sufficient batteries. None installed.
April 2025 on.
From late afternoon there are now consistent voltage lows of 208 volts, this is summertime.
In this live scenario the NGED have had ELEVEN notifiable changes/demands added to their already shared supply of 120 amps, to one single NGED meter.
The landlord has zero interest in properly upgrading the service to all dwellings to three phase.
We are off course aware that the ECO4 installations under these circumstances have been carried out with significant deception by both the installer and the landlord.
The installer has claimed the grant support money, wrongly of course.
The landlord benefits in material cost, wrongly of course for a whole host of reasons.
Our main interest in placing this on the forum and explaining the scenario at this time is to obtain comments and suggestions from:
current or ex DNO staff
to possibly find a sector professional that would be prepared to be a professional witness
and finally,
Is it reasonable to imagine or expect an electrical engineer, once seeing the scenario above, to have alerted the DNO or any other regulatory authorities, considering the dangers at each stage of violation of the DNO contract and of course health and safety and the foreseeable harm to tenants
Thanking you all in advance of your comments
- TL;DR
- This is a very long first post but it unfortunately it needed to be for full context of the scenario and issues posted. We do hope you can find time to view the content and comment. Thank you for looking.
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